Gene,
No doubt you are correct, but it is an interesting that both I and Drake make mention of
the Legend of Bevis of Hampton.
While I may suspect something afoot, so to speak, it is an impossibility to prove. So we
should use the standard format used by other ships of the area and time as the likely
reason. Thus you are far more likely to be correct than my supposititiousness whimsy.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project - Our main support page!
https://carpentercousins.com
From: Gene Zubrinsky GeneZub(a)aol.com [CarpenterCousins]
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:01 PM
To: CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Cc: Rootsweb Carpenter
Subject: Re: [CarpenterCousins] Bevis Passenger List
John,
I suspect the name of the ship Bevis (aka Bevis of Hampton) has nothing to do with South
Hampton in its name or home port. . . .
I’m unclear as to what your point is.
In light of the legend of Sir Bevis, it was clearly no coincidence that the name Bevis was
given to a ship whose homeport was Southampton. This, however, is no reason to draw from
the Southampton port record the conclusion that the ship was “aka Bevis of Hampton.” It
was not uncommon for port records to give the name of the ship, immediately followed by
“of [homeport].” There are plenty of examples of this in Hotten, The Original Lists of
Persons of Quality.
Nor was it uncommon to use Hampton as shorthand for Southampton. The Wikipedia article
about the legendary Sir Bevis of Hampton includes this passage: “Bevis is the son of Guy,
the count of Hampton (Southampton).” The plot summary of another online Bevis of Hampton
article begins thus: “The elderly Earl of Southampton and his young wife have a son,
Bevis.” During the first minute of a YouTube video about a new comic book series featuring
Sir Bevis, Southampton is mentioned several times as the locale of the Sir Bevis of
Hampton legend (see Tales Of Southampton Legend Sir Bevis Of Hampton Have Been
Immortalized In A New Comic Book Series - YouTube).
I firmly reject the notion that the Bevis was known by anything other than its one-word
name. In the Southampton port record of 1638, the ship is the "Bevis of [the homeport
of] Hampton [i.e., Southampton].”
Gene
On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:33 AM, 'John R. Carpenter' jrcrin001(a)gmail.com
[CarpenterCousins] <CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Gene,
While I added to and tried to fix the many errors, I did not originally write the
article on the Bevis (ship). See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevis_(ship)
I suspect the name of the ship Bevis (aka Bevis of Hampton) has nothing to do with South
Hampton in its name or home port. It may have been named after ... Bevis of Hampton or
Sir Bevois, was a legendary English hero and the subject of Anglo-Norman, Dutch, French,
English, Venetian, and other medieval metrical romances that bear his name. The tale also
exists in medieval prose, with translations to Romanian, Russian, Dutch, Irish, Welsh, Old
Norse and Yiddish.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevis_of_Hampton
On page 336, The Founders of New England, a footnote cites the ancient Legend of Sir
Bevis of Southampton in addition to a mountain with a similar name. It appears that Samuel
Gardner Drake was aware of the story of Bevis of Hampton. But maybe could not determine
whether the ship Bevis was named for the story or the port!
I did some quick fixes (including using text from your last email) on the Wikipedia
article and as time permits I will work on the passenger list using Drakes list. So the
article is a little better now than it was.
Thank you Gene!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project - Our main support page!
https://carpentercousins.com
From: Gene Zubrinsky GeneZub(a)aol.com [CarpenterCousins]
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 6:56 PM
To: CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CarpenterCousins] Bevis Passenger List [2 Attachments]
A partial answer to Cuz Bob Carpenter’s question:
A fellow passenger of the Shalbourne Carpenters on the Bevis in 1638 was Richard Dummer,
who had emigrated in 1632 as an organizer of and investor in the failed Plough Company. He
had returned to Hampshire, England, about 1637 and, as a Bevispassenger, was bringing
relatives back to New England with him. The following excerpt from my online sketch of
William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth indicates an indirect connection between Dummer and the
Carpenters:
The Bevis passenger list describes William2 and his father as “of Horwell,” that is,
Whorwell (now Wherwell), in Horwell Hundred, Hampshire, about 15 miles south-south-east of
Shalbourne. Wherwell, which had a tradition of religious dissent—at least two of its
vicars, Stephen Bachiler (1587–1605) and his probable brother-in-law John Bate
(1605–1633), were nonconformists—lies on a straight line from Shalbourne to the Bevis’s
port of departure, at Southampton. (Another Bevis passenger in 1638 was Richard Dummer,
who, with kinsman Bachiler, had been a partner in the Plough Company, which had re-
cruited dissenters for migration to New England in 1631 and 1632.) It is clear from the
chronology of Carpenter records at Shalbourne that the family was at Wherwell for a few
months at most. It is indeed possible that they paused there only long enough to obtain
from sympathetic authorities the certificates of conformity (one for each man) that
customs officials would require for the Carpenters to leave England and from which the
residence recorded for them on the passenger list was probably copied (TAG 70:193–94,
195n14; NEHGR 14:336; Old Hampshire Maps; see also “Focus on the Planter,” GMN 15, no. 4).
Responding to John R.’s reply to Cuz Bob: The Wikipedia webpage pertaining to the Bevis
(also the linked webpage at
packrat-pro.com) contains a considerable number of errors.
Among them:
a.. "The Bevis, also known as the Bevis of Hampton.” The preamble to the
passenger list recorded in the Southampton port book describes the ship as “of
Hampton”—that is, it’s homeport was Southampton. If the ship’s homeport had been London,
it would have been described as the Bevis of London; the place name (and preceding
preposition), however, was not part of the name of the ship.
b.. “.. . . leaving after 12 May 1638 . . . [t]he cargo or ‘goods’ were loaded on 12
May 1638.” As indicated in the preamble, the ship had been “some Dayes gone to sea” by 2
May. Thus, 12 May is the date of the record, entered more than ten days after the fact,
identifying Richard Dum[m]er and Henry Byles [Byley] as shippers of goods on the Bevis,
not the date on which the goods were loaded.
c.. “The ship’s destinations included: Newbury; Weymouth; Wells, Maine; Newport;
Salibury; and Charlestown” (citing Banks, The Planters of the Commonwealth). Banks lists
the places where certain passengers first settled upon arrival, not the destination(s) of
the ship, which (as the Wikipedia piece says further down) was probably Boston—period.
d.. The transcription of the passenger list’s preamble was clearly
copied—imperfectly—from a highly dependable one published by Samuel Gardner Drake. The
Wikipedia and
packrat-pro.com versions contain several typos and also a number of
misreadings. Among the latter is the presentation of the name of the ship as Beuist. What
the contributor (John R.?) took for a t is a footnote reference symbol in the form of a
Latin cross (✝️).. Another example is in presenting the surname of a nine-member group as
“Dum,” rather than Dumr [in this abbreviation of Dummer, the r is written in
superscript].
Here, from The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, 14:336–37, is Drake’s
transcription (I hope it survives transmission):
<New England Historical and Genealogical Register.jpg>
<New England Historical and Genealogical Register-2.jpg>
Gene Z.
On Oct 20, 2018, at 4:58 PM, 'John R.. Carpenter'
jrcrin001(a)gmail.com[CarpenterCousins] <CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Cuz Bob,
No such thing as a stupid question. Sometimes a question just needs to be asked!
The answer is yes and no. The Bevis is relatively unknown and did not make/document
more than one trip to America.
See the article at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevis_(ship) – See the link in the
See Also section.
Individually many of the Bevis passengers have been researched but there is no
combined article on who came from where and whence they went. Austin and Carpenter being
the exception as noted in the article.
It appears the passengers were a mix of people from south west England and mostly
Puritans.
Can anybody add to this?
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project - Our main support page!
https://carpentercousins.com
From: R Carpenter rcarpenter69(a)yahoo.com [CarpenterCousins]
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2018 2:36 PM
To: carpentercousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CarpenterCousins] Bevis Passenger List
Stupid question time...Has anyone ever researched the other passengers to see if there
is a link with our family regionally? Particularly one's listed as servants. Best
Regard's...Cuz Bob
<snip>
<snip>
__._,_.___
.
__,_._,___