Dear Bruce,
William Henry Playfair (1759-1823)- "British Antiquities" is available
to researchers at the British Library in London and the Edinburgh
University in Scotland. It was a very limited edition book and a single
copy is worth about $3,000.00 in fair condition. The Carpenter data
starts in volume One (1) on page S-34. It was published mainly for
Nobility.
William Playfair was noted for his charts and attention to detail. His
family had many notables in Economics, Science and Mathmatics.
Amos Bugbee Carpenter, as part of the Carpenter Family Association did
the compling for the Carpenter Memorial. John P. Jaynes, attorney of
New York, as part of the same association (under the direction of Amos
B. Carpenter) went to England for several months for research. John P.
Jaynes had a large experience in looking up records and estates in the
United States and Europe.
See page 826 of the Carpenter Memorial (A Genealogical History of the
Rehoboth Branch of the Carpenter Family in America) published in 1898 by
Amos B. Carpenter. This appendix gives more data than opening pages of
the Carpenter Memorial. It also cites letters and addtional
sources.
The European Royalty titles have been giving me a pain. However, I have
found Godefroy (Gottfried, Gotfry, etc) was also known as John I Count
of Hainaut (Hainault). Below he is cited as John of Avesnes.
SUBJECT: , John of Avesnes, Count of Hainaut
Acceded: APR 1218
Died: 24 DEC 1257
Notes:
See Europisch Stammtafeln Bund II tafel 5.
Father: , Burchard of Avesnes (or Bouchard I)
Mother: , Margaret I of Flanders, Countess of Flanders
Married SEP 1246 to , Aleidis of Holland, Countess of Holland
Child 1: , John II of Hainaut, Count of Hainault&Holland
MOTHER OF ABOVE: , Margaret I of Flanders, Countess of Flanders
Acceded: 1244
Died: 1280
Notes:
Countess of Hainault.
Father: , Baldwin IX of Flanders, Count of Flanders
Mother: , Mary
Married to , William of Dampierre
Child 1: , Guy of Dampierre, Count of Flanders
Married to , Burchard of Avesnes
Child 2: , John of Avesnes, Count of Hainaut
SEE:
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal07798
I am human and I make mistakes. I also admit them. I try to keep an
open mind and be open to constructive critisim. The early part of the
Carpenter Ancestry has been open to change from day one.
I encourage you to be less biased. If the Carpenter Family is related
to a "mass jew killer," so be it. Let us learn from that lesson and
NEVER EVER let it happen again. Every family has its black sheep.
I also encourage you to keep the data coming in. You provide great
insight in putting the Carpenter Family puzzle together.
When you were in Japan, you sent me data on: 99-02-09 From:
carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp (Bruce Carpenter) John: Below is a bibliography
of Baudouin d'Avesnes. Yours, Bruce Carpenter.
La chronique de Baudouin d'Avesnes Notice extraite du repertoire The
Narrative Sources from the Southern Low Countries, 600-1500. That book
is one of the few I have been able to get my hands on. Unfortunately it
deals mainly with his descendants and his exploits. However as much as
I was able to tell (with my interpreter) his father's title was John of
Hainaut. Further searches led to the above data found on the UK web.
Facts and variables in the view of the times, my friend.
Yours,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
John:
I appreciate your comments as always. In respect to Playfairs, it is not
what is called a primary source. In other words we only have hearsay
evidence and not a real historical document. Who has ever seen 1810
Plaiyfairs?
I'll bet Amos Carpenter got his information by letter from England and never
saw the book. In addition I suspect the information in Playfairs came via
Life of the Late Right Honourable George, Lord Carpenter. A dubious source
for certain. The facts, the facts John!!! Another problem I have is your
persistant insistance that Godefroy de Carpentier married Countess Aleida.
Go back and recheck the whole matter. You have the wrong husband.
Yours,
Bruce Carpenter
-----Original Message-----
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp(a)whidbey.com>
Cc: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>; Tony Carpenter
<chipps(a)chipps.screaming.net>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius(a)flash.net>;
Richard L. Carpenter <adoptahighway1(a)home.com>; Richard (Rich) W. Carpenter
<adoptahighway(a)home.com>; John L. Carpenter <familysearcher(a)mailcity.com>;
Chuck Carpenter <chuck(a)mlsphotos.com>
Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: The 1303 John Carpenter Myth, no. 1????
>Dear Bruce,
>
>JOHN CARPENTER was a member of the English Parliament in 1323 for the
>borough of Leskard in Cornwall, as was 2 years afterwards a Stephen
>Carpenter for Crediton in the county of Devon (ie in 1325). A Henry
>Carpenter served in 1418, for the town of Derby. Per Playfairs British
>Antiquities, London 1810.
>
>I guess this was not a name pulled out of a hat. Check it out your
>self. Sources were available to Amos B. Carpenter. He cites them
>starting on page one (1) of his work.
>
>As I pointed out before, there is other definitions to be used from the
>dictionaries based on the use at that period in time. Chaundeler can be
>a broker or trader (of gold, wool etc.) especially associated with the
>shipping trade. It has been proven that the French & English Carpenters
>were related and involved in such trading.
>
>The Carpenters of this time were well educated and well to do because
>the were nobles. The ancestry in the French line indicates this.
>
>You provided additional proof that ... "John's non-English origins are
>betrayed by the French version of his name in the original document. The
>quotation is extremely brief, stating name and occupation. It is from
>the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1272-128l. It is precisely dated May 12,
>1273 under the heading "Licenses to Export Wool" and reads "Jean le
>Carpenter, merchant". From an E-Mail message dated 13 July 1999 By Bruce
>E. Carpenter. (Where to export - France!)
>
>Jean Le Carpentier (b. abt 1250)- Lord of Daniel et Avesnes les Aubert,
>Du Nord, France had a powerful father... Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire
>de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert ... who married Aleida Countess
>Holland. One of Godefroy's great grandchildren (Philippa) married on 24
>Jan 1327 the newly crowned King Edward the Third of England.
>See: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT
>SELLERS, printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909. AND La chronique de
>Baudouin d'Avesnes Notice extraite du repertoire The Narrative Sources
>from the Southern Low Countries, 600-1500. See also: Longman, W.,
>History of the Life and Times of Edward the Third, 2 vols. (1869;
>repr. 1979) MacKinnon, James, History of Edward the Third: 1327-1377
>(1900; repr. 1974). Packe, M., King Edward III (1983).
>
>Later Bruce E. Carpenter wrote (27 July 1999):
>Jean le Carpenter was among a select group given the rights to export
>wool in 1273. Jean had to be a true `bigwig' with money going to all
>the right places, as had to be Sir John Carpenter with all his lands
>held from King Edward lll and consort Queen Philippa. Money and power!
>Money and power! History can be a better tool than strict genealogy.
>
>Even though in 1272 Edward the First became King of England with Eleanor
>of Castile, I agree that Jean le Carpentier had to be a 'bigwig' as the
>later Sir John Carpenter who held many lands (the same lands noted in
>the Domesday Book of 1097 by the way) from King Edward the Third and his
>wife, Queen Phillipa. Money and Power AND MIGHT I ADD FAMILY.
>
>Jean le Carpentier (b. abt 1303/1305 at de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France -
>He was a noble)or Sir John Carpenter (as he was known in England) and
>Queen Phillipa were SECOND COUSINS. Marriages for the King of England
>was arranged more for political reasons that anything else. History can
>be a better tool than strict genealogy by understanding how things
>worked AT THOSE TIMES.
>
>Has there been a document found that states John or Jean Carpentier is
>the father of Richard? At this time, none has been found.
>
>Did Maurice exist? Yes - according to French records. Did he have a
>son named Jean (John in England)? Yes. Did Maurice go to England? Yes.
>
>In the Samuel Carpenter book of 1912, page 4 is:
>"The most ancient coat of arms of the Carpenters has for the device in
>the field three cross crosslets, which appear in many pedigrees filed in
>the Herald office in London. These lines were located chiefly in the
>counties of Hereford and Gloucester. The arms borne by the Carpenters of
>Homme in Herefordshire show the three cross crosslets, and the same
>appears in a lineage of several generations commencing about 1300 with a
>Maurice Carpenter, or Carpender, Gent., in the County of Gloucester, and
>reported in the Herald Visitation in that county. These arms were also
>borne by the Earls of Tyrconnel, whose descent was through the
>Carpenters of Homme. Burke says that this family was of great antiquity
>in Herefordshire."
>
>If the line of Richard (b. abt 1335), John the elder(b. abt 1399)-
>(brother to John the younger), John the younger (b. abt 1410) to William
>of Homme (b. 1440) is true and the above statement from the Herald
>Visitation is true ... then it is reasonable to assume that a child of
>Maurice was the father of Richard.
>
>Since only two of Maurice's children have been found in the English
>Records, those being for; John OR Jean CARPENTIER (b. abt 1303) and for
>a Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER (b. abt 1307). It is reasonable to assume
>that one of these two continued the line to be the father of Richard (b.
>abt 1335).
>
>Is there absolute proof? - NO. Is it a myth? - No because those people
>did exist historicaly. Is it the best guess? - Probably based on the
>knowledge we have at this time.
>
>So I say, let us NOT be rid of this venerable, but quite annoying best
>guess.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>John R. Carpenter
>La Mesa, CA USA
>
>Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
>>
>> The traditional history of the Carpenter family from a John Carpenter who
>> served in parliament for Leskard in Cornwall in the year 1323 began with
>> Amos Bugsbee Carpenter in the late 1800s. In the late 1800s English
>> historical records were still in manuscript and impossible to access. The
>> script they were written in was difficult to read. They were unindexed
etc.,
>> etc.
>> The 1323 John Carpenter was just a named fished out the pile. Now the
great
>> number of documents unavailable to Amos Carpenter are now fully
accessible
>> to us, and while respecting the efforts of Amos Carpenter, we can gain a
>> much clearer understanding of 14th century Carpenter history.
>>
>> Previous I had shown that Town Clerk Johns family was too powerful
>> economically to have come from a candle-makers family. There must have
been
>> another, and a richer, Richard Carpenter in London. I discovered another
>> Richard in the prosperous neighborhood of Fleetstreet. This Richard
>> naturally had no trade associated with his name. Likewise I found a
Robert
>> Carpenter in nearby Surrey, on the Thames River, with a suspicious
proximity
>> to ships and trade. This Robert was a clerk like the Town Clerk John
>> himself. Clearly there was a Carpenter family of wealth and influence
>> existing in and around London in the later half of the 14th century. What
>> about the early 14th century?
>>
>> In the early 14th century documents I discovered two quite remarkable
>> Carpenter groups. One was centered about a Sir John Carpenter, a knight.
Sir
>> John had extensive land holdings, and most of the documents I discovered
>> relating to him were will-related, after his demise. The exact residence
of
>> Sir John was never revealed, although it was clear he had good property
in
>> Berks, Herts and probably Oxfordshire and Wilts. He probably lived in all
>> those places. It is very tempting to equate this Sir John with the
>> traditional Leskard, Cornwall John. They are exactly contemporaneous. The
>> problem with with a Leskard, Cornwall John Carpenter as a progenitor of
the
>> London Carpenters, was that Cornwall was so far from London, literally
the
>> sticks. Who was this Cornwall Sir John Carpenter? I could find no
reference
>> to him, while I found many references to a Sir John Carpenter with land
next
>> to London. In addition this newly discovered John had no son Richard at
the
>> time of his death, which was before and around 1339. Perhaps the two
Johns
>> were identical and a son Richard died well before his father. Later
>> researchers appointed him as father of Town Clerk John. It is certain
from
>> the documents that Sir John Carpenter had no male heirs at the time of
his
>> death, all his worldly holdings passing to related women or his brother.
>> Could there have been two Sir John Carpenters in parliament in the early
>> 1300s? Doubtful I think. Can anyone find a real reference to a Sir John
>> Carpenter with a son Richard, a reference that is not just hearsay or IGI
>> mythology?
>> If not, let us be rid of this venerable, but quite annoying myth.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Bruce E. Carpenter
>
>