Dear Bruce,
I had Jean le Carpentier who was noted as Lord of Daniel et Avesnes les
Aubert, Du Nord, France as son of Siger but reluctantly changed it.
I thought he would better as son of Godefroy CARPENTIER, Count de
Avesnes,
of Selles Cambrai, du Nord, France. (Godefroid or Godefroy (Gadefroy) in
French, Godwin in Old English )
"Some of the descendants of the aforesaid Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire
de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert (benefactor of the
Abbey of Vaucelles according to a title of the year 1280,
and brother of the aforesaid Siger, Sire de Vannes),
left for England and Holland, where they bear different
arms, although descended from the same house which
recognizes as its originators of the ancient and illustrious
Seigneurs de Gouy or Goy, who are so renowned in the
archieves of the abbies of St. Vaast d'Arras, Mont St.
Elloy, Honnecourt, Mont St. Martin, etc., since the
year 1036, which is mentioned by Andre Du Chesne in
his genealogical works."
BOOK: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT
SELLERS, printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909.
BUT NOW, I think the orginal data was probably right.
THANK YOU for convincing me!
I agree that as probably "royalty based merchants" Siger & Godefroy were
in it up to their eyeballs. Your research paper (noted below) seems to
confirm this.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
"Bruce E. Carpenter" wrote:
Siger's line (Marigny Carpentiers) were in the cloth business
by 1300. This is to say evidence exists they were 'drapier'
by that point (Pierre le Carpentier of Ypres). The b. 1253
Jean le Carpentier should be Siger's son Jean. This would mean that
both the Godefroy line and the Siger line were in business
right from the start, one helping the other. This is great
stuff that hadn't occurred to me before. The 1273 Jean le Carpenter
was Siger's son Jean!!!!!!
BC
******
Subject:
Siger
Date:
Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:38:14 -0700
From:
"Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)whidbey.com>
To:
"John R. Carpenter" <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
This is part of my research paper written previously.
"Godefroy Carpenters brother Siger provides another interesting study
of
this family line and contrast to his brother. Perhaps Siger was the
elder
brother and inherited much of the family holdings. Sigersline or the
Marigny Carpentier line as it was known can be easily referenced in many
French compendiums of French nobility such as Lains Dictionaire etc.
What
is interesting is by the 1300s members of this family line are burgesses
and
merchants in the Ypres cloth market, as well as Gand and Douai. Siger
Carpentiers lineal descendant Pierre Carpenter no longer had the title
of
Sire De Daniel of his ancestor, but was by 1300 a draper of Ypres. It
would
be fascinating to discover when this line of Carpentiers ceased to be
landholders and began to be merchants. For the descendants of Sigerss
brother Godefroy, this transformation seemed to have been immediate.
Surrounding these individuals is of course a vast social drama that
played
itself out in Flanders. There was the impoverishment of the noble class
and
the rise to prominence of the cloth making burgess class of the towns.
Finally in 1302 the burgess class withy their own army defeated the
landed
aristocrats. (see The Flemish Nobility). For the Flemish Carpentiers
their
move to England in the early 1200s might have been a carefully planned
moved
from the beginning, the new England based Charpenters as they became
known
as, were the factor of a family based business back in the Low
Counties.
Perhaps behind their titles of Lord of Daniel and dAvesnes-de-Obert
they
were merchants from the beginning. Perhaps a long line of predecessors
with
commercial skills resulted in John the Town Clerk of London."