Dear Bruce,
In your orginal message ...
In MEDIEVAL ENGLAND by Fryde, 1996 the quote regarding Bishop John
Carpenter is ... "He appears to have come from Westbury near Bristol and
to have descended from a family of Episcopal tenants there." (p. 169).
You wrote:
"The sentence about his ancestry is the only one. 'Appears' suggests
Fryde, and PROBABLY (emphasis added) Dyer before him, have no clear
indication of his ancestry." You did not quote Dyer "vebatim in the
original letter" because you have not seen it.
You also wrote regarding "Dyer's Lords and Peasants in a Changing
Society:The Estates of the Bishopric of Worcester, 680-1540, Cambridge,
1980. THIS I HAVE NOT SEEN (empasis added), but was the basis of the
book I mentioned by E.B. Fryde, Peasants and Landlords, St. Martin's
Press, New York, 1996, ISBN 0-86299-866-2." (PS Thanks for the info to
research this book!)
You wrote:
on 10/12/98 From: carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp
(Bruce Carpenter) John: Happened to be in the basement of my university
and discovered a whole wall of books dealing with the history of England
(Victoria histories Series) by district. Unfortunately the Herefordshire
volumes were missing. However the Worcester and London volumes were
there. The following is about John Bishop of Worcester:
"In the chancel is the gravestone of a priest with a cross flory on a
stepped calvary. On one side is a chalice and host and on the other a
shield of the arms of John Carpenter, Bishop of Worcester (1446-76),
paly azure and gules a chevron argent with three crosslets gules and a
mitre or in the chief."
In the book "A Genealogical History of the Rehoboth Branch of the
Carpenter Family in America" by Amos Bugbee Carpenter 1898 is an
interesting quote from the 1856 book by Thomas Brewer. Which (See page
2) which gives pacticulars regarding the life of "another John
Carpenter" and where he was buried. IE "John Carpenter, the Bishop, was
buried in his native village of Westbury upon Tryn near Bristol, where a
plain altar-monument was erected to his memory, with a skeleton lying on
the top."
While Amos states "we have no record of his parentage nor the date of
his bith and are therefore unable to determine his exact relation to the
family of Richard. There was a close friendship existing between this
John Carpenter and John Carpenter, Town Clerk ..." More than one full
page is dedicated to this person who was an "intimate friend Prince
Henry (afterwards Henry the Fifth)" and connected in many ways to John
Carpenter the Noted Town Clerk of London.
John Carpenter, Bishop was a native of Westbury upon Trym and died 1476
in Worcester and was buried in his native village. You noted his arms
"paly azure and gules a chevron argent with three crosslets gules and a
mitre or in the chief."
The arms granted to Lord George Carpenter in 1719, as published in the
account of his life (The Life and Times of Lord George . . .) were Pally
of six, argent and gules on a chevron, azure,three cross crosslets, or.
CREST, on a wreath a globe in a frame all or. Supporters, two horses,
party-perfess, embattled argent and gules. MOTTO: "Per Actua Belli"
(Through the Asperities of War).
John Carpenter, Bishop, had the same Coat of Arms.
The same arms, less the supporters and motto, were used by the
Herefordshire Carpenter family and were emblazoned in a glass window of
the college and church at Westbury upon Tryn (Trin) as early as 1443.
They were placed there by permanently by Bishop John (the Elder)
Carpenter of Worcester, who was a native of Westbury and a great
benefactor of the college, having rebuilt and refounded it. Bishop John
Carpenter died in 1476 and was buried in the church, where a plain altar
monument was errected to his memory. This church (in 1890) is the Holy
Trinity of Bristol, and is described in Willi's Survey of Cathedrals,
published in 1742. And in Atykn's and Rudder's History of Gloucester
where there is a very interesting sketch of Bishop John Carpenter who
was also known as "Master John Carpenter" mentioned in the will of the
town clerk of London, John Carpenter, the younger.
Both John Carpenter, Bishop and the Descendants of Richard & Christina
Carpenter of London (Whose two sons named John (John the elder & John
the younger - The Noted Town Clerk of London) seem to have the same coat
of arms indicating a shared heritage.
John the elder CARPENTER Bishop-4678
B: Abt 1399 Westbury on Tryn,Bristol,S,England
M:
D: 1476 Worcester,Worcester,England
1st 2nd 3rd 4th
+John CARPENTIER
+R CARPENTER-----¦
¦(Richard) +(CARPENTER)----
+John t CARPENTER¦
¦(the younger) ¦ +---------------
¦ +Christina-------¦
¦ +---------------
John CARPENTER, Bishop
William Carpenter of Homme (the common ancestor of most English
Carpenters in America) has a similar heritage and coat of arms.
William CARPENTER William of Homme-91
B: Abt 1440 Homme,Hertfordshire,England
M: --210
D: Abt 1520 of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England
1st 2nd 3rd 4th
+R CARPENTER----
+John t CARPENTER¦
¦(the elder) +Christina------
+John t CARPENTER¦
¦(the younger) ¦ +---------------
¦ +(CARPENTER)-----¦
¦ +---------------
W CARPENTER WoH
It appears that John Carpenter's, the Bishop, heritage while not perfect
comes from Richard Carpenter (the son of John b. abt 1303). The coat of
arms are virtually identical. The variants in the arms noted are
standard deviations of direct ancestry.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
carpenter wrote:
John:
I did quote verbatim in the original letter. Look again.
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
Cc: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Peasants and Landlords
> Dear Bruce,
>
> Thank you for the ISBN and such.
>
> You wrote: "The sentence about his ancestry is the only one. 'Appears'
> suggests Fryde, and probably Dyer before him, have no clear indication
> of his ancestry." Can you quote what they 'appears' and
'probably' say
> about his ancestry?
>
> I appreciate this.
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
> carpenter wrote:
> >
> > The important book for Bishop Carpenter's estates is
> > Dyer's Lords and Peasants in a Changing Society:The Estates
> > of the Bishopric of Worcester, 680-1540, Cambridge, 1980.
> > This I have not seen, but was the basis of the book
> > I mentioned by E.B. Fryde, Peasants and Landlords, St. Martin's Press,
New
> > York, 1996, ISBN
> > 0-86299-866-2. Chaper 11 is entirely taken up with Carpenter's estates.
> > There is a mountain of unpublished material in England I didn't
> > realize existed. Chapter 11 goes from p. 169-184 and is exclusively
> > Carpenter
> > connected. Other sections of the book deal with him also. The sentence
about
> > his ancestry is the only one. 'Appears' suggests Fryde, and probably
Dyer
> > before him,
> > have no clear indication of his ancestry. In Carpenter history Bishop
> > John is the major frustration. The Dyer book might be a help.
> > Basically all the moveables of the estates were the personal property of
the
> > Bishop.
> > The unmovables were church property. When the Bishop died the animals
> > were disposed of and the next Bishop was free to make of the estates
what he
> > pleased.
> > All manner of people were the tennants of the estates, from serf to
> > gentleman, rich and poor.
> > The Bishop was not much of a business man and spent much of his wealth
> > on his projects like Westbury College. What is interesting
> > in all this was the economic depression in the wool trade at this time.
> > After the Bishop the
> > Worcester episcopal estates give up sheep farming. These must have
> > been hard days for the Carpenters and this explains the lack
> > of really wealthy members of the family into the late 1400s. They
> > seem to settle into small estates and no longer have a place in national
> > affairs.
> > This was partly politics with the demise of the House of Lancaster.
> > There is a lot more to learn.Just the tipof the iceburg.
> > BC
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> > To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > Cc: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 4:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: Peasants and Landlords
> >
> > > Dear Bruce,
> > >
> > > Can you quote verbatim page 169? And the pages about the Bishop's
> > > estates and wool business? Could you also give the book's LOC or
ISBM
> > > ID number? Good find!
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> > >
> > > John R. Carpenter
> > > La Mesa, CA
> > >
> > > carpenter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Another book just in my possession is PEASANTS AND LANDLORDS IN
LATER
> > > > MEDIEVAL ENGLAND by Fryde, 1996. There is major material on Bishop
John
> > > > Carpenter within. The author tells us that, "He appears to have
come
> > from
> > > > Westbury near Bristol and to have descended from a family of
Episcopal
> > > > tenants there." (p. 169) An entire chapter is dedicated to the
Bishop's
> > > > estates and his wool business. Directly connected to these estates
is
> > > > Chipping Camden where I discovered Richard Carpenter in the company
of
> > > > drapers, in the role of broker and agent. Here we are talking about
the
> > > > Cotswolds, the crucial wool producing region of England in the
1400s.
> > > > Associated are the estates of the earls of Warwick and Richard
Beauchamp
> > who
> > > > was directly associated with Bishop John Carpenter. The Warwick
earls
> > were
> > > > also wool producers, finished cloth producers and even ship owners.
This
> > > > book may prove a crucial one for Carpenter history. The Carpenters
must
> > have
> > > > been tenants of the Beauchamps as well.
> > > > Cordially,
> > > > Bruce Carpenter
> > >
>