I will!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
carpenter wrote:
. This Carpentier is mentioned in the "History
of the Kingdom of Flanders" which is a multi-volume set. It may tie
into some of the research you have found. The De Gouye Family is
mentioned also.
Let me know about that, for sure. I have heard about the
books and have wanted to look through them myself.
Another lead is the Flemish
Staple in London in the 1200s. There is a good article in French.
I have it on order for October.
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] fishing 5
> Dear Bruce,
>
> Fair enough. I am content to agree to disagree. And you are right that
> hard cold fact or solid evidence does not exist linking A with C. Often
> we make the "best guess" until more information comes in. Sometimes my
> "best guess" is not the "best guess" of another.
>
> On another thought or two ...
>
> I am pursuing leads that could trace the "Ancestry" back to the uncle of
> Jesus Christ. This is mainly a curiosity of course. I am hoping that
> the data will provide clues for linking other parts of my ancestry.
>
> Another lead is a Carpentier (known under different titles) that was in
> the Flanders area of France that was involved in shipping of "spirits &
> goodes" in the mid 1100s. This Carpentier is mentioned in the "History
> of the Kingdom of Flanders" which is a multi-volume set. It may tie
> into some of the research you have found. The De Gouye Family is
> mentioned also.
> Unfortunately a volume is missing from the set, so it may be a while.
>
> Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin,
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
> Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > OK< OK. However, while any theory is good, once
> > it has been tested and found wanting, the time comes
> > to abandon it. There is not one piece of evidence
> > to connect the family of the Town Clerk of London
> > and William DeMelun. NOT ONE PIECE!!!!!!
> > BC
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> > To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 12:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] fishing REPLY
> >
> > > Dear Bruce,
> > >
> > > I responded also to your request. I provided data from the medieval
> > > research area of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Family
> > > History Medieval Section. See 18 Sept. 2000 message which provides
> > > additional names and a pedigree for Walter de Gouy.
> > >
> > > John Chandler is correct that the IGI is not data per se, but provides
> > > clues. ALWAYS check where the data comes from. Some is junk and some
> > > are "directly extracted records." The International
Genealogical
Index
> > > or IGI does not provide lineages.
> > >
> > > The Ancestral File is a collection of pedigrees and four generation
> > > charts submitted to create a data base for research. This database
> > > provides lineages and family groups. As you and many others know
> > > garbage in equals garbage out.
> > >
> > > The Pedigree Resource File is another version of the Ancestral File
but
> > > providing better researcher data, notes and such. It is also not
> > > limited in identification numbers. Again the data is only as good as
> > > what is submitted. Researchers are encouraged to submit where the
data
> > > came from.
> > >
> > > The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has been the leader in
> > > genealogical research efforts for over a century. They provided the
> > > first genealogy program at a reasonable cost and have opened its
> > > archives to members AND NON-MEMBERS alike.
> > >
> > > The Mormon Church has a religious overtone to genealogy, part of
> > > their religion allows baptism for their dead direct ancestors who
might
> > > have never heard the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.
> > > SEE: Corinthians in the New Testament.
> > > 1 Cor 15:29 and 2 Cor 2:15-16.
> > >
> > > You can use their services and not be preached at. I have worked at
the
> > > Family History Center here in San Diego and the majority of the
patrons
> > > are not members. About a third of my volunteer co-workers are not
> > > members.
> > >
> > > Be thankful that that this Church believes in service. Do you
remember
> > > the days when you had to buy data sight unseen for genealogy? I do.
Do
> > > you remember being frustrated at just trying to find out where to go
to
> > > get information? I do.
> > >
> > > Genealogy was once very expensive and you almost needed a degree to do
> > > any research. It was mainly for the well to do and famous. Now it is
> > > for everyone. You can thank the Mormon Church for encouraging that.
> > >
> > > Theories or speculations should be clearly noted in any data files.
Why?
> > > Because it is almost impossible to establish the minimum three proofs
of
> > > verification on anything past say about 1500 or earlier. The records
> > > simply do not exist documenting birth, marriage and death. Yes, there
> > > are exceptions to royalty or the well to do or to some notable
> > > individual in history.
> > >
> > > William "the carpenter" De Melun is a historic figure documented
for
his
> > > works (good or evil) for history. Some of his ancestry is documented
as
> > > well as some of his descendancy.
> > >
> > > Has it been proved that William "the carpenter" De Melun is the
direct
> > > ancestor of the Carpenters in and near London in the 14th century?
The
> > > answer is NO. The answer has been NO since the beginning. It has
been
> > > labeled as speculation or a theory. For those who fail to read the
> > > notes, fail to understand this.
> > >
> > > The purpose of the Carpenter CD and my compilation of data was to
> > > provide data for future researchers and correct errors where found.
> > >
> > > I have taken earlier Carpenter research and their speculations then
> > > combined with my own limited research to provide A POSSIBLE LINKAGE
> > > (speculation or theory) from point A to point B to point C on the
> > > earliest history of the Carpenters. Is it perfect? NO. I expect it
to
> > > change. I hope it changes ...
> > >
> > > I have asked and sometimes begged others to look for data on the
earlier
> > > Carpenters. I have encouraged open discussion - SHOW ME SOMETHING
> > > DIFFERENT - SHOW ME ANOTHER POSSIBLE LINEAGE. Only a handful have
taken
> > > the challenge even for a small effort. Small pieces of the puzzle
come
> > > in and it changes the picture or how we think we view it.
> > >
> > > How we think we view it ... this based on our own preconceptions,
biases
> > > and desires. This is human nature but needs to be guarded against.
> > > When we allow our negative side to put down or insult others it does
NO
> > > ONE any good.
> > >
> > > Bruce, I know you do not want to have a "Jew Killer" in your
ancestry.
> > > You have stated this very clearly many times. Resorting to slander or
> > > insulting is not right.
> > >
> > > I have helped here and there and shown possible contradictions in the
> > > data you have presented. Just like the many good people on this
> > > Carpenter Forum have done for me.
> > >
> > > I have told you that your research paper will be placed on the
Carpenter
> > > CD to provide a balance. Your investigations should be provided to
> > > future researchers. You have made fantastic efforts in gathering up
> > > early Carpenter data. I applaud you for this!
> > >
> > > Please Remember ... EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM HAS A RIGHT TO PRESENT
DATA,
> > > ASK QUESTIONS AND MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS. NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO
> > > INSULT OR PUT DOWN ANOTHER.
> > >
> > > We may disagree, caution and encourage. This is an open forum. There
> > > are hundreds of people watching with only a small part being active.
> > > When some one is ready to ask a question or ask for help THEY SHOULD
BE
> > > HELPED, NOT HINDERED.
> > >
> > > One last thought. All messages to this Carpenter Forum are stored and
> > > are searchable for future researchers. How do we want to be viewed by
> > > future researchers who might be our grandchildren?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > John R. Carpenter
> > > La Mesa, CA
> > > Compiler of the Carpenter CD Project.
> > >
> > >
> > > carpenter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is plenty of good "medieval stuff" in the IGI,
> > > > faithfully copied from good sources. Unfortunately there
> > > > is what Jason Carpenter called "Mormon crap genealogy"
> > > > like the William 'the Carpenter' DeMelun theory of
> > > > Carpenter origins. If the two Walters really had the title 'de
Gouy'
> > > > they would indeed be candidates as ancestors of
> > > > the Herefordshire Carpenters. I had hoped someone would
> > > > take the bait and research this. Alas, all I reeled
> > > > in was a Chandler. Pathetic outcome, but such are
> > > > a fisherman's fortunes.
> > > > BC
> > > >
> > > > Bruce wrote:
> > > > > Noticed in the IGI data that Raoul de Gouy
> > > > > had a son Walter and he turn a Walter that d.
> > > > > in 1020. This ends where the Jean le Carpentier data
> > > > > begins in the 1030s.
> > > > > Te IGI also says that the two Walters
> > > > > were titled 'de Gouy'. This I cannot confirm. But if
true the
above
> > Gouy
> > > > > line maintained rights to the castle and property until 1020
> > > > > from father to son. This suggests the Herefordshire Carpenters
> > > > > were descendants of Hucbald.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, Bruce, but the stuff in the IGI should not be called
"data".
> > > > At best, it provides clues as to what data might exist (except in
the
> > > > case of the directly extracted vital records, but that obviously
> > > > doesn't apply to medieval stuff). Even if the stuff turns out to
be
> > > > true in general, you have to expect that the IGI will faithfully
> > > > copy the surname from father to son, regardless of rights to castles
> > > > or other property. It makes no sense to jump to conclusions (or
even
> > > > limp to conclusions) based on such meager clues.
> > > >
> > > > John Chandler
> > >
> > >
>
>