Dear Bruce,
It does look interesting. It is such a new book, finding it will be
hard and the cost is steep also.
I wonder if Tony Carpenter in the UK can check it out to see if it has
Carpenters (or Meluns :) ) and such in it.
If we are lucky, he (or someone else on the Forum) can let us know if it
is worth the money.
Also I see you found a better price (special order).
Thanks!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Rolls of Arms of Edward I (1272-1307): Aspilogia III
Gerard J. Brault / Hardcover / Published 1997
Our Price: £150.00 (Special Order)
http://www.patpnyc.com/amazuk/aukgmed.htm
I found ...
http://www.boydell.co.uk/3070.HTM
Rolls of Arms of Edward I, 1272-1307 - set
GERARD J. BRAULT
Towards the middle of the thirteenth century, the proliferation of
heraldic devices gave rise to the first rolls of arms, or lists
of names with accompanying descriptions in formulaic language (blazon)
or painted shields. Some 350 rolls of arms (130 for England alone)
survive from the middle ages, and often provide the only means of
identifying individuals and their possessions.
This third volume of the Aspilogia series, established by the late Sir
Anthony Wagner in 1950 with the aim of making dependable texts of all
the English rolls available to scholars, contains the 17 surviving rolls
compiled during the reign of Edward I (1272-1307); it comprises some
5,126 entries referring to about 2100 individuals, who were among the
most prominent figures of both contemporary England and Europe. It
supersedes earlier editions and brings together important
information that until now has been either relatively inaccessible to
scholars or presented in unreliable form; the large number of
corrections and of new identifications completely transforms the basis
of knowledge of the golden age of heraldry in England.
The 17 rolls are fully annotated, with notes justifying all emendations
and listing significant variants.
GERARD J. BRAULT is Edwin Erle Sparks Professor of French and Medieval
Studies at the Pennsylvania State University. Institute of Heraldic and
Genealogical Studies Julian Bickersteth medal, 1998.
An impressive work [of] enormous significance... will remain the
standard heraldic authority on this reign for decades to
come. HISTORY A heraldic Who's Who of secular society during Edward I's
reign... a weighty research resource, and a magnificent piece of
scholarship. MEDIEVAL PROSOPOGRAPHY A monumental work by the doyen of
medieval heraldry studies. ENGLISH HISTORICAL REVIEW Expert and useful
edition, lay[ing] out the major editorial and interpretive issues, such
as dating purpose, and contents. ALBION A mammoth task, and one for
which a major debt of scholarly gratitude is due... a godsend. MEDIUM
AEVUM [M H Keen]
3 colour illus.; 8 b/w illus.; 1104pp, 24.4 x 17.2cm, 0 85115 669 X
Publication: 01/08/2000
U S dollar $350.00, Sterling £195.00(s)
In Details updated on 20/09/2000
Edition of rolls of arms compiled during the reign of Edward I,
identifying c.2100 prominent figures of contemporary England and Europe.
*********************************************************
carpenter wrote:
This needs to be looked at.
BC
BRAULT, Gerard. ASPILOGIA III. ROLLS OF ARMS OF EDWARD I (1272-1307). 1997.
2 vols. [7] + 523pp. & [5] + 552pp. & 3 colour & 9 black & white plates.
Gives in detail the 17 surviving Rolls of Arms from the Reign of Edward I.
This gives a total of 5,126 arms & much biographical information about the
Armigers. £150.00
----- Original Message -----
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] fishing 5
> Dear Bruce,
>
> Fair enough. I am content to agree to disagree. And you are right that
> hard cold fact or solid evidence does not exist linking A with C. Often
> we make the "best guess" until more information comes in. Sometimes my
> "best guess" is not the "best guess" of another.
>
> On another thought or two ...
>
> I am pursuing leads that could trace the "Ancestry" back to the uncle of
> Jesus Christ. This is mainly a curiosity of course. I am hoping that
> the data will provide clues for linking other parts of my ancestry.
>
> Another lead is a Carpentier (known under different titles) that was in
> the Flanders area of France that was involved in shipping of "spirits &
> goodes" in the mid 1100s. This Carpentier is mentioned in the "History
> of the Kingdom of Flanders" which is a multi-volume set. It may tie
> into some of the research you have found. The De Gouye Family is
> mentioned also.
> Unfortunately a volume is missing from the set, so it may be a while.
>
> Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin,
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
> Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > OK< OK. However, while any theory is good, once
> > it has been tested and found wanting, the time comes
> > to abandon it. There is not one piece of evidence
> > to connect the family of the Town Clerk of London
> > and William DeMelun. NOT ONE PIECE!!!!!!
> > BC
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> > To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 12:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] fishing REPLY
> >
> > > Dear Bruce,
> > >
> > > I responded also to your request. I provided data from the medieval
> > > research area of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Family
> > > History Medieval Section. See 18 Sept. 2000 message which provides
> > > additional names and a pedigree for Walter de Gouy.
> > >
> > > John Chandler is correct that the IGI is not data per se, but provides
> > > clues. ALWAYS check where the data comes from. Some is junk and some
> > > are "directly extracted records." The International
Genealogical
Index
> > > or IGI does not provide lineages.
> > >
> > > The Ancestral File is a collection of pedigrees and four generation
> > > charts submitted to create a data base for research. This database
> > > provides lineages and family groups. As you and many others know
> > > garbage in equals garbage out.
> > >
> > > The Pedigree Resource File is another version of the Ancestral File
but
> > > providing better researcher data, notes and such. It is also not
> > > limited in identification numbers. Again the data is only as good as
> > > what is submitted. Researchers are encouraged to submit where the
data
> > > came from.
> > >
> > > The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has been the leader in
> > > genealogical research efforts for over a century. They provided the
> > > first genealogy program at a reasonable cost and have opened its
> > > archives to members AND NON-MEMBERS alike.
> > >
> > > The Mormon Church has a religious overtone to genealogy, part of
> > > their religion allows baptism for their dead direct ancestors who
might
> > > have never heard the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.
> > > SEE: Corinthians in the New Testament.
> > > 1 Cor 15:29 and 2 Cor 2:15-16.
> > >
> > > You can use their services and not be preached at. I have worked at
the
> > > Family History Center here in San Diego and the majority of the
patrons
> > > are not members. About a third of my volunteer co-workers are not
> > > members.
> > >
> > > Be thankful that that this Church believes in service. Do you
remember
> > > the days when you had to buy data sight unseen for genealogy? I do.
Do
> > > you remember being frustrated at just trying to find out where to go
to
> > > get information? I do.
> > >
> > > Genealogy was once very expensive and you almost needed a degree to do
> > > any research. It was mainly for the well to do and famous. Now it is
> > > for everyone. You can thank the Mormon Church for encouraging that.
> > >
> > > Theories or speculations should be clearly noted in any data files.
Why?
> > > Because it is almost impossible to establish the minimum three proofs
of
> > > verification on anything past say about 1500 or earlier. The records
> > > simply do not exist documenting birth, marriage and death. Yes, there
> > > are exceptions to royalty or the well to do or to some notable
> > > individual in history.
> > >
> > > William "the carpenter" De Melun is a historic figure documented
for
his
> > > works (good or evil) for history. Some of his ancestry is documented
as
> > > well as some of his descendancy.
> > >
> > > Has it been proved that William "the carpenter" De Melun is the
direct
> > > ancestor of the Carpenters in and near London in the 14th century?
The
> > > answer is NO. The answer has been NO since the beginning. It has
been
> > > labeled as speculation or a theory. For those who fail to read the
> > > notes, fail to understand this.
> > >
> > > The purpose of the Carpenter CD and my compilation of data was to
> > > provide data for future researchers and correct errors where found.
> > >
> > > I have taken earlier Carpenter research and their speculations then
> > > combined with my own limited research to provide A POSSIBLE LINKAGE
> > > (speculation or theory) from point A to point B to point C on the
> > > earliest history of the Carpenters. Is it perfect? NO. I expect it
to
> > > change. I hope it changes ...
> > >
> > > I have asked and sometimes begged others to look for data on the
earlier
> > > Carpenters. I have encouraged open discussion - SHOW ME SOMETHING
> > > DIFFERENT - SHOW ME ANOTHER POSSIBLE LINEAGE. Only a handful have
taken
> > > the challenge even for a small effort. Small pieces of the puzzle
come
> > > in and it changes the picture or how we think we view it.
> > >
> > > How we think we view it ... this based on our own preconceptions,
biases
> > > and desires. This is human nature but needs to be guarded against.
> > > When we allow our negative side to put down or insult others it does
NO
> > > ONE any good.
> > >
> > > Bruce, I know you do not want to have a "Jew Killer" in your
ancestry.
> > > You have stated this very clearly many times. Resorting to slander or
> > > insulting is not right.
> > >
> > > I have helped here and there and shown possible contradictions in the
> > > data you have presented. Just like the many good people on this
> > > Carpenter Forum have done for me.
> > >
> > > I have told you that your research paper will be placed on the
Carpenter
> > > CD to provide a balance. Your investigations should be provided to
> > > future researchers. You have made fantastic efforts in gathering up
> > > early Carpenter data. I applaud you for this!
> > >
> > > Please Remember ... EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM HAS A RIGHT TO PRESENT
DATA,
> > > ASK QUESTIONS AND MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS. NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO
> > > INSULT OR PUT DOWN ANOTHER.
> > >
> > > We may disagree, caution and encourage. This is an open forum. There
> > > are hundreds of people watching with only a small part being active.
> > > When some one is ready to ask a question or ask for help THEY SHOULD
BE
> > > HELPED, NOT HINDERED.
> > >
> > > One last thought. All messages to this Carpenter Forum are stored and
> > > are searchable for future researchers. How do we want to be viewed by
> > > future researchers who might be our grandchildren?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > John R. Carpenter
> > > La Mesa, CA
> > > Compiler of the Carpenter CD Project.
> > >
> > >
> > > carpenter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is plenty of good "medieval stuff" in the IGI,
> > > > faithfully copied from good sources. Unfortunately there
> > > > is what Jason Carpenter called "Mormon crap genealogy"
> > > > like the William 'the Carpenter' DeMelun theory of
> > > > Carpenter origins. If the two Walters really had the title 'de
Gouy'
> > > > they would indeed be candidates as ancestors of
> > > > the Herefordshire Carpenters. I had hoped someone would
> > > > take the bait and research this. Alas, all I reeled
> > > > in was a Chandler. Pathetic outcome, but such are
> > > > a fisherman's fortunes.
> > > > BC
> > > >
> > > > Bruce wrote:
> > > > > Noticed in the IGI data that Raoul de Gouy
> > > > > had a son Walter and he turn a Walter that d.
> > > > > in 1020. This ends where the Jean le Carpentier data
> > > > > begins in the 1030s.
> > > > > Te IGI also says that the two Walters
> > > > > were titled 'de Gouy'. This I cannot confirm. But if
true the
above
> > Gouy
> > > > > line maintained rights to the castle and property until 1020
> > > > > from father to son. This suggests the Herefordshire Carpenters
> > > > > were descendants of Hucbald.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, Bruce, but the stuff in the IGI should not be called
"data".
> > > > At best, it provides clues as to what data might exist (except in
the
> > > > case of the directly extracted vital records, but that obviously
> > > > doesn't apply to medieval stuff). Even if the stuff turns out to
be
> > > > true in general, you have to expect that the IGI will faithfully
> > > > copy the surname from father to son, regardless of rights to castles
> > > > or other property. It makes no sense to jump to conclusions (or
even
> > > > limp to conclusions) based on such meager clues.
> > > >
> > > > John Chandler
> > >
> > >
>
>