Dear Bruce,
Fair enough. I am content to agree to disagree. And you are right that
hard cold fact or solid evidence does not exist linking A with C. Often
we make the "best guess" until more information comes in. Sometimes my
"best guess" is not the "best guess" of another.
On another thought or two ...
I am pursuing leads that could trace the "Ancestry" back to the uncle of
Jesus Christ. This is mainly a curiosity of course. I am hoping that
the data will provide clues for linking other parts of my ancestry.
Another lead is a Carpentier (known under different titles) that was in
the Flanders area of France that was involved in shipping of "spirits &
goodes" in the mid 1100s. This Carpentier is mentioned in the "History
of the Kingdom of Flanders" which is a multi-volume set. It may tie
into some of the research you have found. The De Gouye Family is
mentioned also.
Unfortunately a volume is missing from the set, so it may be a while.
Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
OK< OK. However, while any theory is good, once
it has been tested and found wanting, the time comes
to abandon it. There is not one piece of evidence
to connect the family of the Town Clerk of London
and William DeMelun. NOT ONE PIECE!!!!!!
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] fishing REPLY
> Dear Bruce,
>
> I responded also to your request. I provided data from the medieval
> research area of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Family
> History Medieval Section. See 18 Sept. 2000 message which provides
> additional names and a pedigree for Walter de Gouy.
>
> John Chandler is correct that the IGI is not data per se, but provides
> clues. ALWAYS check where the data comes from. Some is junk and some
> are "directly extracted records." The International Genealogical Index
> or IGI does not provide lineages.
>
> The Ancestral File is a collection of pedigrees and four generation
> charts submitted to create a data base for research. This database
> provides lineages and family groups. As you and many others know
> garbage in equals garbage out.
>
> The Pedigree Resource File is another version of the Ancestral File but
> providing better researcher data, notes and such. It is also not
> limited in identification numbers. Again the data is only as good as
> what is submitted. Researchers are encouraged to submit where the data
> came from.
>
> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has been the leader in
> genealogical research efforts for over a century. They provided the
> first genealogy program at a reasonable cost and have opened its
> archives to members AND NON-MEMBERS alike.
>
> The Mormon Church has a religious overtone to genealogy, part of
> their religion allows baptism for their dead direct ancestors who might
> have never heard the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.
> SEE: Corinthians in the New Testament.
> 1 Cor 15:29 and 2 Cor 2:15-16.
>
> You can use their services and not be preached at. I have worked at the
> Family History Center here in San Diego and the majority of the patrons
> are not members. About a third of my volunteer co-workers are not
> members.
>
> Be thankful that that this Church believes in service. Do you remember
> the days when you had to buy data sight unseen for genealogy? I do. Do
> you remember being frustrated at just trying to find out where to go to
> get information? I do.
>
> Genealogy was once very expensive and you almost needed a degree to do
> any research. It was mainly for the well to do and famous. Now it is
> for everyone. You can thank the Mormon Church for encouraging that.
>
> Theories or speculations should be clearly noted in any data files. Why?
> Because it is almost impossible to establish the minimum three proofs of
> verification on anything past say about 1500 or earlier. The records
> simply do not exist documenting birth, marriage and death. Yes, there
> are exceptions to royalty or the well to do or to some notable
> individual in history.
>
> William "the carpenter" De Melun is a historic figure documented for his
> works (good or evil) for history. Some of his ancestry is documented as
> well as some of his descendancy.
>
> Has it been proved that William "the carpenter" De Melun is the direct
> ancestor of the Carpenters in and near London in the 14th century? The
> answer is NO. The answer has been NO since the beginning. It has been
> labeled as speculation or a theory. For those who fail to read the
> notes, fail to understand this.
>
> The purpose of the Carpenter CD and my compilation of data was to
> provide data for future researchers and correct errors where found.
>
> I have taken earlier Carpenter research and their speculations then
> combined with my own limited research to provide A POSSIBLE LINKAGE
> (speculation or theory) from point A to point B to point C on the
> earliest history of the Carpenters. Is it perfect? NO. I expect it to
> change. I hope it changes ...
>
> I have asked and sometimes begged others to look for data on the earlier
> Carpenters. I have encouraged open discussion - SHOW ME SOMETHING
> DIFFERENT - SHOW ME ANOTHER POSSIBLE LINEAGE. Only a handful have taken
> the challenge even for a small effort. Small pieces of the puzzle come
> in and it changes the picture or how we think we view it.
>
> How we think we view it ... this based on our own preconceptions, biases
> and desires. This is human nature but needs to be guarded against.
> When we allow our negative side to put down or insult others it does NO
> ONE any good.
>
> Bruce, I know you do not want to have a "Jew Killer" in your ancestry.
> You have stated this very clearly many times. Resorting to slander or
> insulting is not right.
>
> I have helped here and there and shown possible contradictions in the
> data you have presented. Just like the many good people on this
> Carpenter Forum have done for me.
>
> I have told you that your research paper will be placed on the Carpenter
> CD to provide a balance. Your investigations should be provided to
> future researchers. You have made fantastic efforts in gathering up
> early Carpenter data. I applaud you for this!
>
> Please Remember ... EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM HAS A RIGHT TO PRESENT DATA,
> ASK QUESTIONS AND MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS. NO ONE SHOULD TRY TO
> INSULT OR PUT DOWN ANOTHER.
>
> We may disagree, caution and encourage. This is an open forum. There
> are hundreds of people watching with only a small part being active.
> When some one is ready to ask a question or ask for help THEY SHOULD BE
> HELPED, NOT HINDERED.
>
> One last thought. All messages to this Carpenter Forum are stored and
> are searchable for future researchers. How do we want to be viewed by
> future researchers who might be our grandchildren?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
> Compiler of the Carpenter CD Project.
>
>
> carpenter wrote:
> >
> > There is plenty of good "medieval stuff" in the IGI,
> > faithfully copied from good sources. Unfortunately there
> > is what Jason Carpenter called "Mormon crap genealogy"
> > like the William 'the Carpenter' DeMelun theory of
> > Carpenter origins. If the two Walters really had the title 'de Gouy'
> > they would indeed be candidates as ancestors of
> > the Herefordshire Carpenters. I had hoped someone would
> > take the bait and research this. Alas, all I reeled
> > in was a Chandler. Pathetic outcome, but such are
> > a fisherman's fortunes.
> > BC
> >
> > Bruce wrote:
> > > Noticed in the IGI data that Raoul de Gouy
> > > had a son Walter and he turn a Walter that d.
> > > in 1020. This ends where the Jean le Carpentier data
> > > begins in the 1030s.
> > > Te IGI also says that the two Walters
> > > were titled 'de Gouy'. This I cannot confirm. But if true the
above
Gouy
> > > line maintained rights to the castle and property until 1020
> > > from father to son. This suggests the Herefordshire Carpenters
> > > were descendants of Hucbald.
> >
> > Sorry, Bruce, but the stuff in the IGI should not be called "data".
> > At best, it provides clues as to what data might exist (except in the
> > case of the directly extracted vital records, but that obviously
> > doesn't apply to medieval stuff). Even if the stuff turns out to be
> > true in general, you have to expect that the IGI will faithfully
> > copy the surname from father to son, regardless of rights to castles
> > or other property. It makes no sense to jump to conclusions (or even
> > limp to conclusions) based on such meager clues.
> >
> > John Chandler
>
>