Dear Bruce E.,
Gene Zubrinsky is or recently was on vacation in Europe. Below is some
of his comments on the Nicholas Ide family.
Some of these comments may be insightful to your question.
Sincerely,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
REGARDING: Nicholas Ide-1584 in the CE CD 2001.
!E-MAIL: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 From: GeneZub(a)aol.com
Gene Zubrinsky of Ojai, Calif. provided the following insights:
The more respectable secondary literature pertaining to the Ide family
(none is first-rate) indicates that Nicholas Jr.'s birth year is an
approximation and his birthplace a presumption. There is no record to
substantiate either. Qualifiers such as say, about, and/or perhaps
would therefore be appropriate.
The baptismal date's lack of precision makes me skeptical of it and the
place associated with it. In the absence of a day and month to
accompany the year, the likelihood that a record of his baptism has been
found is nil. I would therefore be reluctant to present anything
concerning a baptism, particularly without citing a source
Nicholas Jr. was buried on 18 Oct. 1690 (Rehoboth VR, 1:87 [not 1:89, as
Arnold (p. 840) has it]); there is no death record.
That Nicholas Ide and Martha Bliss married at Springfield in 1647 is a
fabrication and a confused one at that. There were two, contemporary
Thomas Blisses, one of Rehoboth (d. there between 7 Oct. 1647 [will] and
21 Oct. 1647 [inventory]), the other of Hartford (d. there shortly
before 14 Feb. 1650/1; his wife was Margaret Hulins [TAG 52[1976]:
193-97, 60[1984]: 202]). At least one of the latter Thomas's children
was living at Springfield by 1646, and others followed. Thomas of
Rehoboth and his children, on the other hand, never resided at
Springfield. No daughter Martha is recorded for either man. (Two of
the more reliable secondary sources pertaining to these men and their
families are Donald L. Jacobus and Edgar R. Waterman, Hale, House and
Related Families [1952], pp. 476-80, and Aaron T. Bliss, Genealogy of
the Bliss Family in America, 3 vols. [1982] [hereinafter Bliss Family],
1:27-37.)
Notes for 514. Nicholas Ide Jr.
INFO PER NEW ENGLAND MARRIAGES PRIOR TO 1700 (974.0 V25t) 1985. PAGE
409. IYDE, NICHOLAS ( -1690) & MARTHA [BLISS?] ( -NOV 1676); B 1647;
REHOBOTH. IYDE = IDE.
Torrey's New England Marriages Prior to 1700 is essentially an index of
the genealogical literature and is no more accurate than the secondary
sources he consulted. You will note the question mark after Martha's
surname, indicating uncertaintywith good reason (see below). The
brackets mean that the surname was not derived from a marriage record.
"B 1647" refers to the birth year of their first known child.
<< SEE: Daggett and Allied Familes, page 121: He was broought to america
by his step father, Thomas Bliss and his mother. Children listed in that
record. SEE: Also: Rehoboth, MA Vital Records, Page 649. >>
That Thomas Bliss was Nicholas's stepfather is correct. It is this fact
that provides the basis for concluding that Nicholas's wife Martha was
not Thomas Bliss's daughter (see below).
REGARDING: His wife, Martha Bliss-1585 in the CE CD
The reference in Thomas Bliss's will to "my sonninlaw Nicolas Ide,"
seems to indicate that Ide had married Bliss's daughter. This, however,
is not the case. With his first wife, Dorothy Wheatlie, Bliss had seven
known children (baptized 1615-1626) of whom none was named Martha (Bliss
Family, 1:36). Of these seven, Bliss's will, dated "the seventh day of
the eighth month [October] 1647," names only three; it never-theless
mentions "my fouer Children" (Plymouth Colony Wills, 1:67 [will], 68
[inventory, dated "the 21 of the eighth month [Oct.] 1647"]). The will
refers to Bliss's surviving daughters' husbands in association with
their respective wives: "my eldest Daughter [Elizabeth] and her husband
Thomas Willmore [i.e., Wilmarth]" and "my Daughter Mary and her husband
Nathaneell harmon." "[S]onninlaw" Nicholas Ide, by contrast, is
men-tioned only in relation to Ide's son "Nathaneell."
While these facts are significant in their own right, they become all
the more so when it is understood that the term son-in-law was commonly
used at this time to mean stepson. Taken as a whole, the evidence is
clear: Nicholas Ide was Thomas Bliss's stepson (the fourth of his "fouer
Children"), not the husband of a nonex-istent Bliss daughter Martha.
This interpretation is confirmed by the petition of "Nicolas Hyde" to
the Plymouth Colony General Court, 7 June 1648, "for a childs portion of
the estat[e] of Thomas Blisse, desseased" (Nathaniel B. Shurtleff and
David Pulsifer, eds., Records of the Colony of New Plymouth in New
England [1620-1691], 12 vols. in 10 [Boston, 1855-61], 2:126
[micro-fiche 2/2, FHL set #6046866]). Nicholas's mother and Thomas
Bliss were each other's second spouses. Die-hards who might argue that
Nicholas married his stepsister should recall that there is no record of
Thomas Bliss's having had a daugh-ter Martha; New England colonists,
moreover, would have considered such a marriage as bordering on incest.
(If you incorporate this material into your work, I would appreciate
your crediting me at least with having introduced you to it. Aaron T.
Bliss [Bliss Family, 1:36] reaches the same conclusion, but I have
modified [for the better, I think] the supporting argument and have
supplied primary-source citations.)
Based on the above, the only appropriate reference to Thomas Bliss in
this Carpenter genealogy is as the second husband of Nicholas Ide's
mother (no. 1029). Numbered entries for Thomas Bliss and his entire
ancestry are inappropriate and should be removed.
Nicholas Jr.'s wife Martha's maiden name is unknown.
The child of Thomas Bliss baptized at Daventry on 8 Dec. 1622 was his
son Nathaniel (Bliss Family, 1:36).
Martha (_____) Ide was buried at Rehoboth on 3 Nov. 1676 (Rehoboth VR
[orig.], 1:53a); there is no death record.
REGARDING: His father, Nicholas Ide-1613 in the CE CD
Virtually nothing is known about Nicholas Ide Sr., if in fact that was
the name of so-called Nicholas Ide Jr.'s father. There is no
documentary evidence to support any of these dates and places. And of
course the death and marriage dates you present constitute a logical
impossibility.
As above, a date range (I assume that is what was intended by
"1594/1598") should be expressed not with a diagonal but a hyphen. Save
the diagonal for use with double dates.
*****************************
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
Subject:
[CARPENTER] IDE,HIDE,HYDE in Rehoboth
Date:
Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:59:43 -0700
From:
"Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)whidbey.com>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Has anyone sorted out this old Rehoboth
family group? Greetings from Whidbey Island, WA.
Bruce E. Carpenter