Dear Bruce E.,
That could be part of why Carpenter/Carpentiers are not mentioned in
details in Anselme's works. Since the Carpenter/Carpentier family was
minor nobility, they often are not documented in major works.
I have placed a few queries regarding Andre DuChesne. Hopefully a
positive response will happen. One Family Web page has that line traced
to 1540 in France.
Regarding other works on the Melun Family:
!BOOK: "Europaische Stammtafeln, Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der
Europaischen Staaten - Neue Folge - by Verlag Von J. A. Stargardt 1979
in Marburg, Germany. This is a series of large volumes dealing with
European Royal Families and provides drop charts on the various lines.
It is in German.
!BOOK: Grand Dictionaire Universel DU XIX Siecle Paris 1873. Tome 10 in
pacticular.
And the online Internet Medieval Sourcebook.
The Internet Medieval Sourcebook is located at the Fordham University
Center for Medieval Studies. WEB Page at:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html
Sincerely,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
carpenter wrote:
I have not found much on Carpentier in Anselme with the exception
of Carpentier de Crecy. The whole idea of his research is primary
aristocratic
families and their descents from the Kings of France. The Carpentiers were
unfortunately small potatoes. All through his work are references to the
genealogist
Andre DuChesne. The good father's work seems based on DuChesne, who might be
interesting
for Carpentiers because Jean le Carpentier claimed DuChesne wrote about
them. I have
not the slightest idea how to access DuChesne, but heard Yale University
library
has a number of unpublished volumes. Perhaps his research was never printed.
DuChesne was perhaps the final source for DeMelun early history. I doubt
there is anything
beyond the information in Pere Anselme for Melun. You mentioned "other
records", but
what could those be?
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] more Melun
> Dear Bruce E.,
>
> I look forward to reading Pere Anselme's history of the Melun family. I
> am curious on how it compares to other records.
>
> He is also supposed to have a section on Carpentier. Have you seen that
> volume yet?
>
> Keep the data coming, it is very interesting.
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
>
> carpenter wrote:
> >
> > John L:
> > This is completely wrong. In Pere Anselme the Lordship of Melun
> > is passed down for hundred of years. Guillaume was an extremely common
name
> > for later Meluns. As for several children of 'the carpenter', thier
names
> > have not survived.
> > I suspect that anything known about the early Melun line is in Pere
Anselme.
> > The Melun origin of the Carpenters is based on an assumption without the
> > slightest
> > evidence. It has been discredited. It is a bad habit like cigars. Yes,
> > probably hard
> > to give up, like the one I just finished smoking.
> >
> > I will say one thing, the Melun line is really impressive. They lasted
right
> > up to the guillotine.
> > BC
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> > To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 4:06 PM
> > Subject: [CARPENTER] more Melun
> >
> > > Dear Bruce E.,
> > >
> > > William "the carpenter" De Melun had several children. Only
one
carried
> > > the title of Lord of Melun, as documented. Other children took their
> > > own titles or died before he did.
> > >
> > > William "the carpenter" de Melun lived a relatively long time
for a
> > > Knight of the time. From about 1044 to about 1109 or so.
> > >
> > > Under the title and surname "Melun" you are right that there was
only
> > > one other "Guillaume II de Melun." He was the fourth great
grand son
of
> > > William "the carpenter" de Melun.
> > >
> > > Please note that Guillaume and Manasses are rare names in the De Melun
> > > line. Both names did not bear well for the holders. Some were
tainted
> > > with the name traitor and/or died young.
> > >
> > > "1) Guillaume II, who accompanied King Louis XI on his expedition to
> > > Africa, and who died without issue ..." (Page 1399-1400). One of
four
> > > grandsons of Adam II De Melun.
> > >
> > > This Guillaume II had a brother named Adam. He was Adam II just like
> > > his father, Adam II. Why? Titles, but with the last Surname!
> > >
> > > !Confusion arises when there is two Adam Is & Adam IIs in this
> > > (Melun)line. However one set is of the Lord of Meluns and the other is
> > > the Lord of Tancarville line. THIS ADAM is Adam II, "Lord of
> > > Tancarville, orginator of the Tancarville branch, which was
extinguished
> > > at the beginning of the 15th century, after having produced several
> > > archbishops, several grand chamberlains and other court dignitaries,
and
> > > whose last descendant, Guillaume ... perished at the battle of
> > > Agincourt. From this branch came that of the counts and princes of
> > > Epinay, lords of the manor of Ghent, marquis of Roubaix and
richebourg,
> > > and counts of saint-Pol. This branch ended with Louis De Melun,
prince
> > > of Epinay, made duke of Joyeuse in 1714, killed during a hunting party
> > > at Chantilly in 1724, without leaving any descendants." (Page
> > > 1399-1400).
> > >
> > > The puzzle is more complex than I ever had dreamed of!
> > >
> > > Keep sending the data!
> > >
> > > John R. Carpenter
> > > La Mesa, CA
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > > [CARPENTER] more Melun
> > > Date:
> > > Tue, 20 Mar 2001 14:21:18 -0500
> > > From:
> > > "carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > > To:
> > > CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A the conclusion of Father Ansleme' account of
> > > of William 'the carpenter' DeMelun (vol. 5, p. 221) he says that
> > > "de race royale & cousin de Hugues de France, compte de
Vermandois,
> > > frere du roi Philippe l."
> > >
> > > The jist of this is that William, was the cousin of Hugh the Grand
who
> > > was the brother
> > > of King Philip of France, the implication being that William
> > > was the grandson of Hugh Capet, King of France,
> > > the first of the Capetian kings of France.
> > >
> > > Where did the notion that these people were Normans come from? Wow.
> > >
> > > As I stated William the First had only one son. He certainly didn't
> > > have a son William because William the Second DeMelun appears
> > > in the 1200s. This is a definitive end of the DeMelun-English
Carpenter
> > > discussion. Theory disproved 3/21/ 2001. 2:15 in the afternoon, Nara,
> > > Japan.
> > > Thank you all ladies and gentlemen!
> > >
> > > Bruce E. Carpenter
> > >
> > >
>
>