Dear Bruce E.,
I have tried to get the Carpenter Museum to make a copy of that
particular will for me. However, they have just started to inventory
their collection using a computer program. They have genealogical
material stored that they do not even know about!
In reviewing my notes on Robert of Marden (RIN 14708 in the CE CD 2001)I
found that Gene Zubrinsky makes notes of that will and others in his
correspondence to me. See the complete notes below. Excerpts with his
cites follows.
"His willdated 12 January 1606[/7?] and proved 21 May 1607 (he died
between these dates)provides only very general evidence as to his age
at death: it
mentions (among others) one grandchild and indicates that neither of his
daughters was married (Prerogative Court of Canterbury, Registered
Wills, Huddleston, Vol. 109 [1607], folio 42 [FHL film #92029])."
"The claim that Robert's only known wife, "Elinor" (as spelled in his
will and her burial record), was a Carpenter cousin derives from a
misinterpreted term in the will of Isabell (Stockham [not Storke])
Carpenter of Marden (dated 20 May
[proved 5 8th mo. (Oct.)] 1596), who is mistakenly thought to have been
Elinor's mother. The passage in Isabell's will establishing her
probable maiden name as Stockham (English genealogist Harry Rogers
misread it as Storke) is
this: Isabell "bind[s] mye Brother Edwarde Stockeham to see payed" 20
shillings to her "cosyn [i.e., niece] Susan Bishoppe" (Archdeaconry
Court of Sarum, Original Wills, box 16-18 C [1552-1630], 5 Oct. 1596
[FHL film #97436]"
"Of course Isabell's having been Robert's stepmother means she was the
widow of Robert's father, William of Marden, who had died between 21
Dec. 1586 (will) and 14 April 1587 (probate). And in the same way that
Isabell, early in her
will, names "William Carpenter
the Sonn of Robarte Carpenter,"
William, early in his, mentions son "Robert Carpenter's eldest sonne
Willm" (Archdeaconry Court of Sarum, Registered Wills, Vols. 5-8
[1556-1613], 7:71 [FHL
film #994488]). Isabell names "mye Sonn in lawe Robarte Carpenter" her
executor; William makes "my sonne Robert Carpenter" his executor.
Isabell names as her overseer "John Bekingham Clarcke [sic] vicar of
marden"; among the
witnesses to William's will is "Johens Bekingham Vicar.""
If Gene has the printouts of the wills, I would be happy to put them on
my web page for ALL to see. Otherwise we need to order the Family
History Library (FHL) films and hope the copies are readable.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
*********************************************************
From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
09/26/2006 5:01 AM
Subject: [CARPENTER] time has come
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Time has come to review the Marden Carpenter wills in light
of the Hidden abstracts. We need a good transcription of the 1607
Robert will. In summations of these documents I read things like
"left lands to". Well, what lands? Any details we could glean from them
might be valuable clues.
There are too many coincidences to ignore the possibility that
Robert Carpenter of Marden was connected to the Hungerford Carpenters.
Of greatest importance is the fact that the Marden church land in 1530s
was
held by a Thomas Carpenter. Robert's will named a William, a grandson
William, a
Richard,a Robert and an Alice; all Carpenter names found in the
Hungerford
area list.
I haven't seen a transcription of this will. The above is all third hand
information.
Who can provide this data?
BC
***************************************
1. Robert CARPENTER of Marden-14708 was born about 1545 in of Sarum,
Wiltshire, England. He died in 1607 in Marden, Wiltshire, England.
Robert was awell-to-do sheep proprietor.
WILL: His 1607 will lists his wife, who was his cousin Eleanor
Carpenter, their children (William, Richard, John, Charles, Robert,
Edith, and Alice.
A grandson named William and a brother named Richard. He bequeathed
money Salibury Cathedral (Old Sarum), which is added evidence for his
descent from Vicar Richard Carpenter who had served as Vicar General to
the Bishop
of Salisbury. He also bequeathed certain lands to his oldest son
William and grandson William as well as to his son Richard Carpenter.
This Will, copy now at the Carpenter Museum in Rehoboth, MA, is the only
one ever found in England that agrees with all the proven facts about
the American Carpenter Family. The success in proving this lineage
after 300 years of
failure was achieved through the superlative work of English Genealogist
Harry F. Rogers of Abington, England.
E-MAIL: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)whidbey.com>
The following are two items, as they appear, from the REGISTER OF EXETER
COLLEGE, one of the various residential colleges of Oxford University.
"John Batt, Dev. 1567, vac. By absense 1579; B.A. 24 Nov. 1570, M.A. 27
June 1573.
"Robert Carpenter, Sar. 1568, removed 30 June 1579 for absense in
Ireland; B.A. 22 Nov. 1571, M.A. 18 June 1575; 10 Nov.1575 allowed leave
of absence for 4 years to teach in a school or the like, because of his
poverty."
The expression "because of his poverty" has to be seen in historical
context, of a widespread economic downturn in Wilts, resulting in the
financial ruin and deprivation of many of the best area families. John
Batt and Robert Carpenter
appear side by side in other Exeter documents suggestion friendship
association in a social setting of a limited number of scholars. During
a bad year of the plague Robert Carpenter ran Exeter College. The
identity of a John Batt from
Devizes is well established in Wiltshire history. He was a member of a
very prominent cloth making family whose members were mayor of the city.
Their tax rates were at the same rate as local gentry (A History of
Wiltshire, Oxford,
vol.10, pp. 253-255). There must be some connection between the Devises
Batts and the Salisbury Batts.
Someone might help with this. The interesting thing here is Robert
Carpenter from Sarum, whose dates exactly match the traditional Robert
Carpenter, grandfather of Rehoboth William Carpenter. An Oxford M.A. and
sheep farming are by no means incompatible in late 1500s Wilts.
Remember that Rehoboth William goes to America with a good quantity of
books. Odd for a house carpenter.
Along with Robert at Exeter was another Carpenter, but no given name. He
seems to have been an undergraduate.
Providence Williams father was also an Exeter man, at a later date. His
identity is without question because Susan Traveleyan is mentioned. He
had four different degrees, including a doctorate! This Richard
Carpenter was a minister
among other things. See my "For Prov. Carpenters" letter.
If this Robert Carpenter were the one from our Rehoboth line, it would
be interesting if we knew more about his father.
Where was he thought to live?
Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter.
E-MAIL: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 From: GeneZub(a)aol.com
Gene Zubrinsky of Ojai, Calif. provided the following insights:
<< 4096. Robert Carpenter of Marden was born about 1545 in , Wiltshire,
England. He died 1607 in Marden, Wiltshire, England. Robert married
Eleanor Carpenter about 1575 in , , England.
>
On
what grounds do you present Robert's birth year as "about 1545"? His
willdated 12 January 1606[/7?] and proved 21 May 1607 (he died between
these dates)provides only very general evidence as to his age at death:
it
mentions (among others) one grandchild and indicates that neither of his
daughters was married (Prerogative Court of Canterbury, Registered
Wills, Huddleston, Vol. 109 [1607], folio 42 [FHL film #92029]). This
information is as
compatible with a birth year of 1555 as with one of 1545. And since
there is only the possibility (no proof) that so-called William of
Wherwell was his son, it is inapprop-riate to work backward from
William's approximate birth year
(1576) in estimating Robert's date of birth or marriage.
The claim that Robert's only known wife, "Elinor" (as spelled in his
will and her burial record), was a Carpenter cousin derives from a
misinterpreted term in the will of Isabell (Stockham [not Storke])
Carpenter of Marden (dated 20 May
[proved 5 8th mo. (Oct.)] 1596), who is mistakenly thought to have been
Elinor's mother. The passage in Isabell's will establishing her
probable maiden name as Stockham (English genealogist Harry Rogers
misread it as Storke) is
this: Isabell "bind[s] mye Brother Edwarde Stockeham to see payed" 20
shillings to her "cosyn [i.e., niece] Susan Bishoppe" (Archdeaconry
Court of Sarum, Original Wills, box 16-18 C [1552-1630], 5 Oct. 1596
[FHL film #97436]
). (It is unlikely that Edward was her brother-in-law: she makes a
bequest directly to "mye Sister Agnys Bishoppe" and presum-ably would
have done so to Edward Stockham's wife if she had been Elinor's sister.)
Isabell also leaves money or goods to "William Carpenter ... the Sonn of
Robarte Carpenter," "my godsonn Rycharde Carpenter," and to Charles,
"Eadye"/"Eadie," and "Alyce" Carpenter. She bequeathed the
resi-due of
her estate and bestowed executorship of it "unto mye Sonn in lawe
Robarte Carpenter." It is here that the misinterpretation occurs: in
the same way that cousin commonly referred during this period to a
different relative from that denoted by the word
today (see previous paragraph), son-in-law then typically meant
stepson. Isabell was thus not Robert's wife's mother but his
stepmother. Consistent with this inter-pretation is Isabell's failure
to name Elinor in her will. There is
consequently no basis for assuming Elinor was Robert's cousin and
attributing to her the maiden name Carpenter.
The will of Robert Carpenter of Marden (dated 12 Jan. 1606) names, among
others, brother Richard, sons William and Charles, and daughters Edith
and Alice. That these five are the same persons whose names also appear
in Isabell's will is virtually certain: the size of these identical name
combinations is too large for it to be otherwise, and there is no
conflicting evidence. And tending to confirm that the Robert Carpen-ter
named by Isabell became the 1606 testator is that two of the witnesses
to Isabell's will, Nicholas Henton and James Clarke, also witnessed
Robert's will.
Thus if Isabell had been Elinor's mother, then Robert's children
William, Charles, Edith/Eadie/Eadye, and Alice/Alyce would have been
Isabell's natural grand-children. Yet her will uses no terminology
indicating (or even implying) that her Carpenter legatees are related to
her by birth. Also supporting the proposition that Isabell was Robert's
stepmother is that she did not appoint brother Edward Stockham as her
executor. If Robert Carpenter had been her
son-in-law (in the modern sense), it is likely she would have named an
executor to whom she was more closely related.
Of course Isabell's having been Robert's stepmother means she was the
widow of Robert's father, William of Marden, who had died between 21
Dec. 1586 (will) and 14 April 1587 (probate). And in the same way that
Isabell, early in her
will, names "William Carpenter
the Sonn of Robarte Carpenter,"
William, early in his, mentions son "Robert Carpenter's eldest sonne
Willm" (Archdeaconry Court of Sarum, Registered Wills, Vols. 5-8
[1556-1613], 7:71 [FHL
film #994488]). Isabell names "mye Sonn in lawe Robarte Carpenter" her
executor; William makes "my sonne Robert Carpenter" his executor.
Isabell names as her overseer "John Bekingham Clarcke [sic] vicar of
marden"; among the
witnesses to William's will is "Johens Bekingham Vicar."
Despite all the above evidence pointing to Isabell as the widow of
William of Marden (though not the mother of his sons Robert and Richard
and perhaps not of their siblings), William's will refers to "my
Welbeloved Wife Elizabeth
[emphasis added]." This apparent contradiction, however, can be
explained by the interchangeability in England at the time of the names
Elizabeth and Isabel. Based on a common derivation from the Hebrew
Elisheba ("God's oath"),
Isabel was a variant form of Elizabeth (Alfred J. Kovatch, The Jonathan
David Dictionary of First Names [Middle Village, N.Y., 1980], pp. 355,
384). (The early French equivalent of Elizabeth was Isabelle; to this
day, the Spanish
translation of Elizabeth is Isabel.) It would therefore not have been
considered strange for an Englishwoman named Elizabeth to have used the
name Isabel(l) and to have been known by either or both names. (This
entire discussion
represents my own analysis. If you incorporate it into your work, I
would appreciate your crediting me as its originator.)
Notes for 4096. Robert Carpenter of Marden
<< Robert was a well-to-do sheep proprietor.
>
Robert's will indicates he was not poor, but "well-to-do" may be an
overstatement. His specific monetary bequests totaled £86 15s. 4d.;
bequests of specific goods totaled 30 sheep, two cows, one heifer, and
one bushel of barley. His remaining "goods, movable and unmovable,"
which he left to wife Elinor and son Richard, are not itemized. Son
John's inheritance (£10) was to be paid when his apprenticeship,
presum-ably in a trade, was finished. These facts lead me to describe
Robert more cautiously, as a "moderately prosperous husbandman or
sheepman."
<< WILL: His 1607 will lists his wife, who was his cousin Eleanor
Carpenter, their children (William, Richard, John, Charles, Robert,
Edith, and Alice. A grandson named William and a brother named Richard.
He bequeathed money
Salibury Cathedral (Old Sarum), which is added evidence for his descent
from Vicar Richard Carpenter who had served as Vicar General to the
Bishop of Salisbury. He also bequeathed certain lands to his oldest son
William and
grandson William as well as to his son Richard Carpenter. This Will,
copy now at the Carpenter Museum in Rehoboth, MA, is the only one ever
found in England that agrees with all the proven facts about the
American Carpenter Family.
The success in proving this lineage after 300 years of failure was
achieved through the superlative work of English Genealogist Harry F.
Rogers of Abington, England.
>
The will is dated 12 Jan. 1606;
it was proved on 21 May 1607.
Elinor's maiden name is not known. As the previous page's discussion
indicates, there is no evidence that she was Robert's cousin and
therefore no reason to assume her maiden name was Carpenter.
Elinor's having been Robert's widow does not guarantee that she was the
mother of his children.
That Robert gave 12 pence to the cathedral church of Sarum (Salisbury)
indicates nothing more than con-ventional Anglican piety. It was a
common gesture, and the amount is extremely modest. The only items of
evidence of which I am aware underlying the speculation (no matter how
it is couched, that is all it is) that Robert's agnate great-grandfather
was Vicar Richard Carpenter are these: (1) Richard is said to have been
Vicar of Ramsbury (about 16 air miles NW of Marden) and Vicar General
to the Bishop of Salisbury (about 16 air miles S of Marden); (2) his
will is said to mention a son Robert; and (3) the agnate grand-father of
Robert of Marden is said (but not proved) to be Robert of Eskydmore
Upton (i.e., Upton Scuda-more, about 15 air miles SW of Marden, 20 miles
NW of Salisbury,
and about 30 SW of Ramsbury) (see The Carpenter Family News-Journal
1[1971]:3:n.p. [microfiche 3 of 18, FHL set #1047153]). Even if every
"said to" is a fact, this does not begin to constitute adequate evidence
that Vicar Richard
Carpenter was a direct ancestor of Robert of Marden.
Robert's will leaves "thirteene pounds sixe shillinges eighte pence" to
son William and a heifer to grandson William; nowhere does it explicitly
mention land.
Harry Rogers located, copied, and analyzed the will of Robert Carpenter
of Upton Scudamore and those of William, Isabell, and Robert Carpenter,
all of Marden. Neither his transcriptions nor his interpretations are
altogether accurate,
however. The Carpenter lineage he and Raymond G. Carpenter first
published in Rosemary Bachelor's The Carpenter Family News-Journal in
1971 is not proved (see microfiche 3 of 18, FHL set #1047153).
<< 4097. Eleanor Carpenter was born about 1545 in , Wiltshire, England.
>
There are no more grounds for estimating Elinor's birth
year than for
Robert's. While it may be that she was born in Wiltshire, expressing it
as a certainty is inappropriate.
Notes for 4097. Eleanor Carpenter
<< Eleanor Carpenter was a cousin to her husband, Robert Carpenter. (2nd
cousin, 1 generation removed with a common ancestor of William Carpenter
of Marden (b. abt. 1545).)
>
This is incorrect. See the
discussion on pp. 12-13.
Elinor Carpenter, described as a widow, was buried at Marden on 17
October 1626 (Marden Parish Records [Bishop's Transcripts], Wiltshire
Record Office, Trowbridge [FHL Film #1279413]).
Robert married (MRIN:100) Eleanor CARPENTER-14714, daughter of Robert
CARPENTER-24965 and Isabella STORKE-15281 (MRIN:6203), about 1575 in , ,
England. Eleanor was born about 1545 in , Wiltshire, England.
Eleanor Carpenter was a cousin to her husband, Robert Carpenter.
(2nd cousin, 1 generation removed with a common ancestor of William
Carpenter
of Marden (b. abt. 1545).)
-------------------------------------------------------