John,
Your statement of his possible death as after 2 May 1638 was cited
and you indicate as being most prudent.
What I said was that “in my view, the only prudent manner in which to present William1’s
death data is as quoted above from the first paragraph of his sketch”—that is, he “was
still living a few days before 2 May 1638,” and that "he died probably at Weymouth,
Massachusetts Bay Colony, or Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony.”
The Bevis passenger list was created at Southampton on or about 2 May 1638, the date on
which port authorities received “the Lord Treasurer’s warrant” apparently releasing the
ship from “restraynt” after the fact of its departure, “some Dayes” previously. In that
the passenger was created and held at the customhouse, it contains data that had been
obtained as passenger boarded and therefore does not necessarily reflect those living on
board on 2 May. But that’s such a fine point that I wouldn’t quarrel with “living 2 May
1638” or “died after 2 May 1638.” (You’ll notice that the Coldham volume dates the
passenger list in May but refrains from giving a day.)
And 12 May 1638 reflects when the cargo or “goods” were loaded on 12
May 1638. Some give 16 May 1638 for the date of sailing but I see no proof given for that.
Assuming that there was no change in the passenger list or any deaths between 2 and 12 May
1638 then the later date could be used, but only with proper clarification. And being less
cautious or prudent.
The Southampton customhouse record of 12 May simply states that “Richard Dum[m]er &
Co. and Henry Byles [sic] & Co. [were] shippers of goods in the Bevis.” As passengers
on the ship, the “companies” of Dummer and Byley numbered 9 and 4 persons, respectively.
In light of this record’s wording—and what the passenger list’s preamble says about the
Bevis’s having been “some Dayes gone to sea" by 2 May—there’s no reason to conclude
that the goods were loaded on the date of the record.
Thanks for forwarding my previous message. Perhaps you won’t mind passing this one along,
as well.
Gene
> On Apr 10, 2018, at 8:09 AM, John R Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)cox.net> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> My summary and suggestion was ... I would list his death as about 1638/1640 probably
in, Weymouth, Massachusetts Bay Colony, now, Weymouth, Norfolk, Massachusetts, USA.
>
> No ifs ands or buts, the 2 May 1638 date reflects the date of the passenger list. And
it is logical to assume he died after that date. Your statement of his possible death as
after 2 May 1638 was cited and you indicate as being most prudent.
>
And 12 May 1638 reflects when the cargo or “goods” were loaded on 12
May 1638. Some give 16 May 1638 for the date of sailing but I see no proof given for that.
Assuming that there was no change in the passenger list or any deaths between 2 and 12 May
1638 then the later date could be used, but only with proper clarification. And being less
cautious or prudent.
>
> Regardless which date is used, I encouraged them to modify the date without a
modifier.
>
> And yes, I should have cited the RESIDENCE section of the related Carpenter Sketch.
Because it is the combination of all cited that provides the best information.
>
> I will pass this and your message onward.
>
> I appreciate the elucidation.
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA USA
> Carpenter Cousins Project
>
http://carpentercousins.com
>
>
> From: Gene Zubrinsky <>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 5:08 PM
> To: John R Carpenter <>
> Cc: John F. Chandler <> ; Terry Carpenter <>
> Subject: Re: William Carpenter-98 (b. abt 1575 England - d. 1638/1640 Weymouth) -
Bevis and death info
>
> John,
>
> In your message to
Geni.com <
http://geni.com/>, you (presumably inadvertently)
gave William1’s date of death as “after May 12, 1638.” While I assume you had intended May
2 (the date of the Bevis passenger list),
Geni.com <
http://geni.com/>’s revision has
May 12.
>
> Since the Bevis passenger list was created when the ship had been “some Dayes gone to
sea," the first paragraph of my William1 Carpenter sketch
<
http://carpentercousins.com/Wm1_Shalbourne.pdf> says that he “was still living a
few days before 2 May 1638,” and that "he died probably at Weymouth, Massachusetts
Bay Colony, or Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony.” Your statement—that he died “at sea, or perhaps
of Weymouth . . . (at sea or shortly after arrival)”—inappropriately gives equal if not
more weight to the died-at-sea alternative. It is nevertheless what now appears on the
Geni page for William Carpenter of Shalbourne (1576 - 1638)
<
https://www.geni.com/people/William-of-the-Bevis-Carpenter/60000000105055...;.
>
> It’s not certain that William1’s failure to be made a freeman along with William2, on
13 May 1640, was due to the death of the former man: he had left England an unimportant
old man. It is therefore pure speculation to describe his death as having occurred
“shortly after arrival” or "between June 1638 and May 1640.” In my view, the only
prudent manner in which to present William1’s death data is as quoted above from the first
paragraph of his sketch.
>
> While, as you say, the IMMIGRATION section of the William1 sketch provides additional
detail, the RESIDENCES section provides more still. The following passage is of particular
relevance:
>> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence: considering his age (advanced),
marital status (presumably widower), and position in his family (almost certainly
subordinate to his son), it is not significant that William1 fails to appear in
Massachusetts records as a freeholder or town officer, for example. And with deaths at
this time being the vital event least often recorded, it is unremarkable that no such
record is found for him. (Also unrecorded is the birth, probably in late 1638, of his
grandson Samuel3.)
> I would be grateful if you would forward this message to Erica Howton and anyone else
to whom you had sent your previous advisory. Also for their information: the William1
sketch’s most recent revision (on 4 April 2018) discusses the possibility (tending toward
unlikely) that his wife was Alice Swithen (see pp. 2–3). Thanks.
>
> Gene
>
>> On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:20 PM, John R Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)cox.net <>>
wrote:
>>
>> Hello Cousins!
>>
>> Recently, I answered a few questions from the
Geni.com <
http://geni.com/>
users regarding William Carpenter-98 (b. abt 1575 England – d. abt 1738) aka
Wm1_Shalbourne.pdf in the Carpenter Sketches by Gene Zubrinsky.
>>
>> They had earlier posted his death as 2 May 1638 in Weymouth, Norfolk, MA. And it
started to be passed around a gospel truth, so I traced the source to the
Geni.com
<
http://geni.com/> entry on William1. This lead to the message below and effort to
correct the misleading information.
>>
>> Please note that they did modify the date then asked a question. See below for
the answer.
>>
>> John R. Carpenter
>> La Mesa, CA USA
>> Carpenter Cousins Project
>>
http://carpentercousins.com <
http://carpentercousins.com/>
>>
>> Message sent to
Geni.com <
http://geni.com/> users ...
>> Regarding:
>> Death: after May 12, 1638
>> At sea, or perhaps of, Weymouth, Norfolk County, Massachusetts Bay Colony,
Colonial America (at sea or shortly after arrival)
>>
https://www.geni.com/people/William-of-the-Bevis-Carpenter/60000000105055...
<
https://www.geni.com/people/William-of-the-Bevis-Carpenter/60000000105055...
>>
>> The death place is a bit awkward. When when I look at statistical odds his
returning to England after settling his only known family is very very low. It just was
not done back then. For 99% of the passengers it was a one way trip.
>>
>> The probability of a 62 year old surviving such a voyage on the Bevis is quite
good and the probability exceeds 92%. This partly based on studies done on immigrants of
that time period. With no evidence contrary, he likely survived and arrived in Weymouth.
>>
>> Eugene Cole "Gene" Zubrinsky, FASG in his Carpenter Sketches and
specifically the article on this William Carpenter (Wm1_Shalbourne -
http://carpentercousins.com/Wm1_Shalbourne.pdf)
<
http://carpentercousins.com/Wm1_Shalbourne.pdf)> comes to the same basic
conclusion. He explains it briefly in his opening paragraph then in more detail in his
IMMIGRATION section.
>>
>> Gene writes the following to the place of his death ...
>> DEATH: The latest known record of William1 is the aforementioned Bevis
passenger-list entry of 2 May 1638. His namesake son, William2 Carpenter, settled at
Weymouth probably in 1638 and certainly before 13 May 1640, when he was admitted a freeman
there.
>> That William1 was not also made a freeman at this time was probably due either to
his having died or to his station, which was modest when considered apart from his son’s
(see TAG 14:336, 70:193, 195n13; EDUCATION/OFFICES, below).
>>
>> Based on the above one can safely assume William1 (62 years old in 1638) likely
died sometime between June 1638 and May 1640 probably in Weymouth, Massachusetts Bay
Colony.
>>
>> There is less likelihood of him surviving past the 60-65 year life expectancy of
the time. But if he did live into the 1640s, he may have been able to travel Rehoboth,
Plymouth Colony with the family.
>>
>> Sadly there is no documentation regarding anything about him in the colonies.
>>
>> Based on the above, I would list his death as about 1638/1640 probably in,
Weymouth, Massachusetts Bay Colony, now, Weymouth, Norfolk, Massachusetts, USA. I would
also add something in your notes regarding how such info was arrived at.
>>
>> For more on the 12 Carpenter Sketches, please see:
http://carpentercousins.com/carplink.htm <
http://carpentercousins.com/carplink.htm>
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> John R. Carpenter
>> La Mesa, CA USA
>>
http://carpentercousins.com <
http://carpentercousins.com/>
>>
>> PS - In case you are interested, I cleaned up the Wikipedia article on the Bevis.
See:
>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevis_(ship)
<
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevis_(ship)>
>>
>> From: Geni <>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 1:16 PM
>> To: jrcrin001(a)cox.net <>
>> Subject: Erica Howton sent you a message on Geni.
>>
>>
>> <
https://www.geni.com/c/775eba26b709a7b6077d919713aa47a059ac0869> Home
of the World Family Tree
>> Dear John,
>>
>> Erica Howton has replied to a message in your inbox:
>>
>> Re: William "of the Bevis" Carpenter
>>
>> Thank you so much for bringing to attention, I’ve updated and locked the
suggested death date.
>>
>> Can we do better on death location?
>> Reply to this message here:
>>
https://www.geni.com/c/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<
https://www.geni.com/c/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>Kind regards,
>> - The Geni Team
>> You are currently signed up to receive message notifications. Unsubscribe
<
https://www.geni.com/account_settings/unsubscribe_confirm?e=jrcrin001%40c...;.
>> ©
Geni.com <
http://geni.com/> | P.O. Box 4015, Burbank, CA 91503 USA
>
>