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Deeply saddened by this mailing list's degeneration into a forum for social commentary and anti-intellectualism, I've had it. I'm out.
Gene Z.
Sent from my iPad
The last paragraph of Michael J. Leclerc's Genealogy News (Blog) cited by
Gene.
"Worse still is that many of these individuals are actively working against
the promotion of quality research. They attack anyone would dare to question
inferior research techniques as “elitist.” By the same token, many experts
are too quick to denigrate anyone who questions anything new and different.
We must find a balance, and do our best to promote quality research
techniques so that even beginners can understand how to be confident in
their research findings."
In American society there is a gathering dis-trust in government and our
leaders. Those in the used car profession now have higher respect than most
of Congress. Add in those professionals (professors, doctors and such) who
side with and distort their works toward the political and we have many
having far more distrust in our leaders.
There is a feeling among many that those we used to look up to no longer
have the common good and the betterment of the Country. Many feel betrayed,
disrespected and resent being told that they "can not understand such
complicated things" because they are not educated enough, smart enough or in
other words not an elite.
I have two people who I know that are biologists. Both of them dislike each
other because the other is "stupid." Both are Mensa level smart. Each has a
specialty that is so unique that the number of peers in that specific area
is in the low hundreds from around the world. Out of the 7 billion (7,
000,000,000) people around the world only a very small fraction can
understand and work at their level. In their minds, even people with science
degrees in biology and those with masters and even doctorates are not at
those levels. I.e. they are stupid.
Science has exploded so fast and so far that most textbooks on advanced
topics are out of date by the time they are published.
Attitude is the little thing that has the biggest difference. When those so
far advanced begin to believe they are smarter and know what is best for
others then comes trouble. For example, Here in America we had eugenics
before the NAZIs started their programs. We were sterilizing, lobotomizing
and racially profiling until enough people realized that those victims had
lost their human and Constitutional rights because someone thought they knew
better than the rest of us.
There has been so much change in science, the law and around the world that
most people can not keep up. Too many see that the changes, right wrong or
indifferent is placing more and more controls (restrictions) on them, their
families, their work, and country.
The media has contributed to this by the round the clock, 24 hours a day
news cycle. In the 1970s and 80s we had them pushing to be afraid of
global cooling and now it is global warming we must be afraid and give up
our hard earned money for.
Yes, there is a growing distrust because human nature has not changed very
much in the last 10,000 years. There will always be someone smarter
(eventually), better and thinking they should control others for their own
good. Some will always vie for power over others and we know that power
corrupts.
Then we have those saying there is no right or wrong just shades of gray. We
have those that say religion is an opiate of the people. We have a dumbing
down and grade inflation in education where everyone wins a trophy (reward)
and it is never your fault but someone else is the problem. We have some of
the so called best minds seeming dumbing down society while science and
other areas are advancing astronautically. We have mind numbing education
and media and the divide seemingly grows worse every year. We are a people
being pushed, and pulled two radically different directions and the divide
and distrust is growing. Maybe we should just pass a law?
The old League of Nations approved a resolution that disallowed or banned
war. Not to long after that came World War II and hosts of other conflicts
and human misery. Yes, we have a right to mis-trustful of those that claim
their way is better.
When elitists or "many experts are too quick to denigrate anyone who
questions anything new and different." This causes distrust. And yes, we
must "find a balance" and attitude is the little thing that makes a big
difference. It works both ways.
Personally I think science should never be influenced or dominated by
political correctness. Personally, I think the rights of the common man are
equal to the rights of the smartest and dumbest of all. Personally, I
believe the Constitution of the United States of America and its Bill of
Rights puts restrictions on governments and the people and encourages others
to respect others.
Today the balance is out of whack. Maybe in some areas we need to slow down,
stay focused on the basics and be conservative in interpretation of the
facts and more tolerant for rights granted under the Constitution. Maybe we
need less tribal affiliation and more working toward the common good.
Attitude works both ways. We need to educate ourselves and learn. All of us
learn at different rates and have different interests. If we forget or allow
our common ground or base to be disrupted or destroyed then comes chaos.
A little here and a little there makes a huge difference over time. This is
true in genealogy, family history and in life.
If you do not have a candle, find another way to enlighten the darkness.
Become involved in life, in what is going on around you and in society. You
can have an impact. You can make things better, especially for our children
by choosing light over darkness.
Remember to slow down and smell the roses now and then, crack a smile, have
a little fun, but never ever forget your goals! :)
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
PS
An old Chinese proverb says give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a
man to fish, feed him for life.
I say give a man some genealogy, he is happy for a day. Teach him to do
genealogy and he is hooked for life!
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Zubrinsky via
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 4:28 PM
To: carpenter(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Darkness
There is an ancient proverb that it is better to light a candle than curse
the darkness. Some folks, however, seem to prefer the dark, feeling, for
example, that having fun doing genealogical research is incompatible with
doing it right. I don’t agree, and I don’t believe that John R. does,
either. For those particularly resistant to intellectual exercise, perhaps
these postings will be somewhat illuminating:
http://blog.mocavo.com/2014/04/death-expertise
Genea-Musings: Musings On Genealogy "Expertise," "Elites" and Education
Gene Z.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Gene,
Thank you for understanding.
We both help people on different levels of genealogy. You are on the higher end and I muddle through closer to the other end of the scale.
Most of my focus at the local FHC is the introduction of genealogy through the basics and into family history. I help people toward some of the some more intermediate and advanced research techniques or tricks. This includes DNA research, adoption searches, forensic genealogy and such.
I try to make genealogy fun and rewarding for those who are starting out and to keep that interest despite the long hours of sometimes un-rewarding research and roadblocks that are inevitable with genealogy.
Knowing that others are facing the same type of problems and can find places like this forum to find help or just a listening ear can be very helpful.
I really hope that all members of the Carpenter Roots forum (Carpenters, Zimmermans and related names) can find this Rootsweb place to be a helpful, rewarding, and okay to be slightly irrelevant or slightly off-topic place to share their problems and thoughts towards all things dealing with Carpenter Cousins.
To me there is no such thing as a dumb question or a question that has already been asked more than once before. We all learn at different rates and are on different levels of our Genealogy and Family History experiences. We are all learning. Or in my case, re-learning things that I ought to have remembered.
It is okay to be different, it is okay to have differences of opinion. We all have a common goal Carpenter Cousins related Genealogy and Family History!
With respect and regards.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
From: Gene Zubrinsky
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 2:48 PM
To: John R Carpenter ; carpenter(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Research & Publishing
John,
I compile genealogy not for the sheer purpose of numbers but for trying to understand my past and those of other Carpenter Cousins. I try to help others where and when I can.
I know you do. My depiction of “gathering” was not directed at you, and I’m sorry if it left that impression.
Gene has the experience, learned skills and analytical mind to do the detail research and to know which sources are better than others. When he looks at his research material he is evaluating it and screening it at a level most of us will never be at. In my mind he is focused on how that material can be used especially in publishing. There was no intent to insult or misdirect.
I’m certain that’s true, and no offense was taken. I simply felt the need to correct your description of my priorities and further reinforce the importance of methodological rigor in the research process, regardless of one’s publication plans or lack thereof. I woke up this morning feeling that “gross mischaracterization” struck an unfriendlier tone than I had intended; “mistaken” would have been more appropriate.
Many thanks for your extremely kind words.
Gene Z.
Donna -
So well said! I had been trying to compose something like this and you
nailed it.
We each need to respect each other - period.
Shelley Carpenter
On 1/17/2015 5:00 PM, Robert & Donna Klaesson via wrote:
> Gene, with all due respect and compassion for your cause, would you please back off!!! We are all human and infalible and just doing the best that we can. Genealogy is or should be a fun thing to experience...it does not have to be scientific with so many do's and don'ts for most of us who just enjoy having fun with our family history and don't consider it to be a major understaking such as you appear to want it to be. For you, that is perfectly reasonable but leave John alone..as well as the rest of us in this group....he is doing his best and contributing considerable amount of time and effort ...and I for one would much rather 'listen' to his messages than your rebuttals!!
> Sincerely, Donna Klaesson
>
>
> On Saturday, January 17, 2015 3:31 AM, Gene Zubrinsky via <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> In listing some of the RootsWeb Community Guidelines that he invites us to review, the Carpenter mailing list administrator neglects to mention the one that is particularly relevant to the matter underlying his message:
>
> Post only information appropriate for a given topic.
>
> Gene Z.
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
There is an ancient proverb that it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Some folks, however, seem to prefer the dark, feeling, for example, that having fun doing genealogical research is incompatible with doing it right. I don’t agree, and I don’t believe that John R. does, either. For those particularly resistant to intellectual exercise, perhaps these postings will be somewhat illuminating:
http://blog.mocavo.com/2014/04/death-expertise
Genea-Musings: Musings On Genealogy "Expertise," "Elites" and Education
Gene Z.
Gene, with all due respect and compassion for your cause, would you please back off!!! We are all human and infalible and just doing the best that we can. Genealogy is or should be a fun thing to experience...it does not have to be scientific with so many do's and don'ts for most of us who just enjoy having fun with our family history and don't consider it to be a major understaking such as you appear to want it to be. For you, that is perfectly reasonable but leave John alone..as well as the rest of us in this group....he is doing his best and contributing considerable amount of time and effort ...and I for one would much rather 'listen' to his messages than your rebuttals!!
Sincerely, Donna Klaesson
On Saturday, January 17, 2015 3:31 AM, Gene Zubrinsky via <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com> wrote:
In listing some of the RootsWeb Community Guidelines that he invites us to review, the Carpenter mailing list administrator neglects to mention the one that is particularly relevant to the matter underlying his message:
Post only information appropriate for a given topic.
Gene Z.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello List,
I am not a professional accredited genealogist. I am not literate with
degrees or a good writer or speaker. I compile genealogy not for the sheer
purpose of numbers but for trying to understand my past and those of other
Carpenter Cousins. I try to help others where and when I can.
I wrote:
"Gene stresses the publishing and he is correct that higher standards should
be used. His genealogical output is part of the best. He works always
toward the goal of publishing, thus he is focusing on that end product."
Gene has the experience, learned skills and analytical mind to do the detail
research and to know which sources are better than others. When he looks at
his research material he is evaluating it and screening it at a level most
of us will never be at. In my find he is focused on how that material can be
used especially in publishing. There was no intent to insult or miss direct.
Gene is a FASG - a Fellow of the American Society of Genealogists. In my
mind this is the Master level of Genealogists.
Any "Election to The American Society of Genealogists is based on a
genealogist’s published work. Emphasis is upon compiled genealogies and
published works that demonstrate an ability to use primary source material;
to evaluate and analyze data; to properly document evidence; and to reach
sound, logical conclusions presented in a clear and proper manner."
http://fasg.org/fellows/
For more on Gene, please see:
http://fasg.org/fellows/current-fellows/eugene-cole-zubrinsky/
On Gene's list of professional publishing, you will not see the Carpenter
Sketches, but some of the source material cited in it. The Carpenter
Sketches are formatted (modified) for computer based genealogy programs and
for ease of use.
See the Carpenter Sketches intro page at:
http://carpentercousins.com/carplink.htm
For Carpenters, the Carpenter Sketches are the most valuable on those two
immigrant families. Please take a look at the bottom of the page for some
of the material in Gene's FASG listing. Compare those (style of writing and
citations) to the format in any of the Carpenter Sketches. One is formal and
the other less formal. Both are good.
Gene is at the height of his genealogical level of experience, education and
skills. Most of us, like me, are closer to the "interested amateur" level.
We all learn at different rates, in different ways and have different goals
for our genealogy. Some of us are just curious, some want to leave some
type of legacy for our children, or that genealogy is a way of passing on
our Family History or the stories behind the facts and figures. Very few of
us will achieve Gene's level. He is an excellent example for the
professional and aspiring amateurs.
When you are starting out and have never had a class in genealogy or formal
genealogical training, what do you do? Learn and educate yourself. Learn to
understand there are different styles (like European and American) of formal
genealogy publication. Understand that may or not be what your want to
achieve.
For all of us, simply finding the original documents to support anything is
always better than copying some genealogy or from a self-published book. We
start at what we know and work toward the unknown. Just like a CSI (Crime
Scene Investigator) or putting together a huge jigsaw puzzle. Gather in what
your find, evaluate and disseminate. Gather in more facts, re-evaluate,
move on.
Part of the education process for anyone is learning which material has a
higher value. Which research books/authors are better than others? You can
take classes and educate. You can ask others. Or ... Gather in everything,
the good and bad and learn the difference by doing. By making the decision
yourself and asking others, you will quickly learn a lot.
Then, as Gene has said, "... content that is accurate; conservative as to
conclusions; transparent as to rationales for conclusions from indirect
evidence; based on reliable sources and disciplined analysis, etc."
Over time, many of us can become better researchers. We learn from
experience, from others, and determine what we want to do with what we find.
Not all of us will publish professionally and become professional
genealogists. But, rising our standards can never be wrong.
After learning the basics of genealogy, you should realize that when you see
genealogy without documentation that should send up a warning flag in your
mind. When you see a source that cites the "One World Tree" then that
should cause you to stop and engage the brain.
In time you will learn more and hopefully help others. This is one reason
this Carpenter Roots forum is here.
As mentioned before, this Carpenter Roots forum has become Carpenter Cousins
(Carpenter, Zimmerman and related names). It has a bit of Carpenter Y-DNA
and our forum administrator allows us to be less on one specific topic than
most forums. It works, most of the time for the majority of users.
I hope this helps.
John R. Carpenter
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Zubrinsky via
Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 3:23 AM
To: carpenter(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] Research & Publishing
On Jan. 16, John R. Carpenter wrote:
> One important point I would like to bring out is the difference of
> research and publishing.
>
> Research is the gathering and publishing is the output.
>
> Gene stresses the publishing and he is correct that higher standards
> should be used. His genealogical output is part of the best. He works
> always toward the goal of publishing, thus he is focusing on that end
> product.
>
> There are European genealogical publishing formats, The New England
> Historic Genealogical Society register format and a few others. The
> details of publishing can even go into the details of using acid free
> paper and specific types of fonts. Whichever format you use, use in
> properly.
>
> I stress the gathering. . . .
The assertion that I stress publishing over research is a gross
mischaracterization and, in drawing a distinction between the two, creates a
false dichotomy. To equate research with “gathering,” moreover, does a
disservice to the process as it should be conducted.
Of the seven volumes I listed yesterday as resources from which everyone can
benefit, only the Hoff and Stratton book and that by Hatcher are devoted
primarily to genealogical writing for publication. The other five focus
almost exclusively on the research process: types of records; historical and
cultural background information; evaluation of records and their sources;
interpretation and analysis of evidence; standards of proof, etc. Far more
is entailed here than searching/gathering/organizing. (Gathering is the
bane of quality genealogy: it involves little or no evaluation or analysis
but plenty of indiscriminate repetition of secondary sources whose
reliability is rarely questioned. Its goal is often to collect as many
names as possible and is sometimes accompanied by the announcement of a
running total.)
No matter how modest or ambitious our goals, we all expect to share our
findings with others. While format and style are important considerations,
what matters most by far is content--content that is accurate; conservative
as to conclusions; transparent as to rationales for conclusions from
indirect evidence; based on reliable sources and disciplined analysis, etc.
Whoever reads our work--from a small number of family members to a wide,
genealogically knowledgeable readership--deserves to be presented with
reliable information. Regardless of the audience one has in mind, research
should be conducted in the same manner (broadly speaking), with the same
standards. Until we are exposed to high-quality work (such as that of the
leading genealogical journals) and to explicitly stated methods and
standards (such as those presented in the recommended volumes), we are
likely to remain oblivious to the extent to which our own approach might
need upgrading.
Gene Z.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
On Jan. 16, John R. Carpenter wrote:
> One important point I would like to bring out is the difference of research and publishing.
>
> Research is the gathering and publishing is the output.
>
> Gene stresses the publishing and he is correct that higher standards should be used. His genealogical output is part of the best. He works always toward the goal of publishing, thus he is focusing on that end product.
>
> There are European genealogical publishing formats, The New England Historic Genealogical Society register format and a few others. The details of publishing can even go into the details of using acid free paper and specific types of fonts. Whichever format you use, use in properly.
>
> I stress the gathering. . . .
The assertion that I stress publishing over research is a gross mischaracterization and, in drawing a distinction between the two, creates a false dichotomy. To equate research with “gathering,” moreover, does a disservice to the process as it should be conducted.
Of the seven volumes I listed yesterday as resources from which everyone can benefit, only the Hoff and Stratton book and that by Hatcher are devoted primarily to genealogical writing for publication. The other five focus almost exclusively on the research process: types of records; historical and cultural background information; evaluation of records and their sources; interpretation and analysis of evidence; standards of proof, etc. Far more is entailed here than searching/gathering/organizing. (Gathering is the bane of quality genealogy: it involves little or no evaluation or analysis but plenty of indiscriminate repetition of secondary sources whose reliability is rarely questioned. Its goal is often to collect as many names as possible and is sometimes accompanied by the announcement of a running total.)
No matter how modest or ambitious our goals, we all expect to share our findings with others. While format and style are important considerations, what matters most by far is content--content that is accurate; conservative as to conclusions; transparent as to rationales for conclusions from indirect evidence; based on reliable sources and disciplined analysis, etc. Whoever reads our work--from a small number of family members to a wide, genealogically knowledgeable readership--deserves to be presented with reliable information. Regardless of the audience one has in mind, research should be conducted in the same manner (broadly speaking), with the same standards. Until we are exposed to high-quality work (such as that of the leading genealogical journals) and to explicitly stated methods and standards (such as those presented in the recommended volumes), we are likely to remain oblivious to the extent to which our own approach might need upgrading.
Gene Z.
In listing some of the RootsWeb Community Guidelines that he invites us to review, the Carpenter mailing list administrator neglects to mention the one that is particularly relevant to the matter underlying his message:
Post only information appropriate for a given topic.
Gene Z.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Carpenter via" <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com>
To: <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 2:53 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
>I just came across the mention of Amos's book. I'm wondering how
>accurate this book is considered. >
Hi Carl
I have a facsimile copy of this book that I bought back in 1992
from a printer I think in Coon Rapids Iowa ??? Was some name
like that
Was amazing I found out about it considering was no Google and
not much Internet back then anyway . From memory was via a letter
I sent to a newspaper in Vermont . Use to write lots of letters
in those days
I really cant judge its accuracy. Looks pretty amazing
considering when it was compiled as was way before any Gestetner/
Xerox machine and the telephone was in its infancy.
Found a couple of name muddle ups in our twig . Would have
been good to have more sources
particularly for our direct line. Of the 4 children one female
name was really wrong but I did find out her correct name . The
incorrect male name is still a mystery . Tried every which way
with the census and he has stayed hidden. I do know this
brother was alive in the early 1870's. Its still a challenge !
Bye
MargM
Beautiful NSW Central Coast
CARPENTERs of Rehoboth Australian twig
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4260/8937 - Release Date: 01/15/15
Thank you very much. Great answers and exactly the type of answers I was hoping to get. Sorry to hear there's no pot of gold waiting, though. :)
Carl Carpenter
On Friday, January 16, 2015 2:01 AM, "carpenter-request(a)rootsweb.com" <carpenter-request(a)rootsweb.com> wrote:
Today's Topics:
1. Amos B. Carpenter's Book (Carl Carpenter)
2. Re: Amos B. Carpenter's Book (MargM)
3. Re: Amos B. Carpenter's Book (John R Carpenter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 03:53:13 +0000 (UTC)
From: Carl Carpenter <mrbbshop(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
To: "CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com" <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID:
<152773455.1998927.1421380393116.JavaMail.yahoo(a)jws10649.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I just came across the mention of Amos's book. ?I'm wondering how accurate this book is considered. ?No flames, please.?Carl Carpenter
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2015 15:36:20 +1100
From: "MargM" <genknut(a)iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
To: "Carl Carpenter" <mrbbshop(a)yahoo.com>, <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <EF0DA3FC263741D092AD8F37D8368979@margnvostro>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Carpenter via" <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com>
To: <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 2:53 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
>I just came across the mention of Amos's book. I'm wondering how
>accurate this book is considered. >
Hi Carl
I have a facsimile copy of this book that I bought back in 1992
from a printer I think in Coon Rapids Iowa ??? Was some name
like that
Was amazing I found out about it considering was no Google and
not much Internet back then anyway . From memory was via a letter
I sent to a newspaper in Vermont . Use to write lots of letters
in those days
I really cant judge its accuracy. Looks pretty amazing
considering when it was compiled as was way before any Gestetner/
Xerox machine and the telephone was in its infancy.
Found a couple of name muddle ups in our twig . Would have
been good to have more sources
particularly for our direct line. Of the 4 children one female
name was really wrong but I did find out her correct name . The
incorrect male name is still a mystery . Tried every which way
with the census and he has stayed hidden. I do know this
brother was alive in the early 1870's. Its still a challenge !
Bye
MargM
Beautiful NSW Central Coast
CARPENTERs of Rehoboth Australian twig
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4260/8937 - Release Date: 01/15/15
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 23:45:11 -0800
From: "John R Carpenter" <jrcrin001(a)cox.net>
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
To: "Carl Carpenter" <mrbbshop(a)yahoo.com>, <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <29696894168D4CE2A95F1FFB15D04FA6@JohnCarpenter>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
reply-type=original
Carl,
A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY IN
AMERICA. Also known as the CARPENTER MEMORIAL by Amos Bugbee Carpenter and
printed in 1898. My copy has some 900 pages with many handwritten
corrections, book self corrections (from the back of the book) and other
updates. It is one of the scanned books of the Carpenters Encyclopedia of
Carpenters.
It is also on Google books (without corrections or handwritten notes) and
one or two other places for free. For example:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029839549
The Carpenter Memorial was an amazing book for its day. And while quite
large, it was quite typical of the genealogy books printed back then. The
negatives are ... no real sources, it relied mostly on self reporting, it
was done before computers with multiple book print fonts & typos and it has
some significant family errors here and there.
The book has material that is not anywhere else but in the Carpenter
Encyclopedia and those genealogies that copied the CE.
And many of the families mentioned within its 900 pages have had significant
corrections, adjustments and such since 1898. The Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA
Project has had some impact in sorting out the different Carpenter lines.
Two important things I should mention about the Carpenter Memorial.
First is that it documented and debunked the belief (scam - the Nigerian
scam of its day) that there was millions of pounds (English money) awaiting
the rightful Carpenter heirs. The Carpenter Family Association of the mid to
late 1800s bought that story hook, line and sinker. They fell for the scam
and the only ones who benefited financially was the lawyers who apparently
played along milking the benefits.
Second it helped reveal or direct researchers to the understanding that some
Carpenter ancestry had been changed to prevent those families from claiming
any monies that the real Carpenter were going to claim.
Yep, human nature has not changed much in the last 10,000 years and it
certainly has not changed in the last century and a half!
If you were a Loyalist Carpenter family removed from the former colonies
then you may have had your genealogy redone. Some Long Island Carpenters
became Zimmermans from Wales for example. If you were a Carpenter Rebel
family during the Civil War, then you may have your ancestry changed to
Zimmerman or otherwise disinherited.
We (Carpenter Researchers) have been sorting that mess for a while!
So, use such older genealogy books, like the Carpenter Memorial, with
caution. AND when you do use such old books, confirm, correct and document
what you find.
Remember to Document, Document and Document! Genealogy without
documentation can not be verified by our descendants.
I hope this helps.
John R. Carpenter
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Carpenter via
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 7:53 PM
To: CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
I just came across the mention of Amos's book. I'm wondering how accurate
this book is considered. No flames, please. Carl Carpenter
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email with no additional text.
End of CARPENTER Digest, Vol 10, Issue 12
*****************************************
Hello List,
One important point I would like to bring out is the difference of research and publishing.
Research is the gathering and publishing is the output.
Gene stresses the publishing and he is correct that higher standards should be used. His genealogical output is part of the best. He works always toward the goal of publishing, thus he is focusing on that end product.
There are European genealogical publishing formats, The New England Historic Genealogical Society register format and a few others. The details of publishing can even go into the details of using acid free paper and specific types of fonts. Whichever format you use, use in properly.
I stress the gathering. It can be messy and not one standard research plan fits all forms of research. But, it is important to conduct a reasonable exhaustive search of what is available. Often you will find another way of researching even after you have done a reasonably exhaustive search. No genealogy is ever set in stone.
The following is general information and not designed to be specific. There are many places on line that will suggest this and that and how tos.
Organize yourself, your materials and searching in a systematic manner. Use a research log to indicate where and when you did searches on who and whom. Educate yourself by reading, asking for help and taking classes.
This includes gathering and organizing what you find (text, documents, pictures and such), including conflicting information, emails and research notes on each subject.
Share your information and ask others if your conclusions of the material are right. For researching do use words like possible, speculative and such. Later you will want to resolve conflicting information and discard unsupported conclusions. This means getting rid of or minimizing words like possible, speculative and such.
Your goal is to have all your names, dates and places supported by verifiable evidence. If your evidence is directly from the original documents such as birth, marriage, and death then that is fantastic. If your evidence is from other sources document that. If the conclusion is based on the preponderance of the evidence – make your logic and conclusion to reflect that.
Be aware that eventually you will not find the ideal three levels of proof like birth, marriage and death preferred by the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) and others. That is when DCOUMENT, DOCUMENT and DOCUMENT of all related material is needed. Maybe someone somewhere will find a clue to use your research to build upon.
I volunteer at FamilySearch Library – aka a former regional Family History Center. On our web page there are many helpful links for genealogy and family history research.
If you have a chance, please visit and rate the page.
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/San_Diego_California_FamilySearch_...
John R. Carpenter
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
To all members of the Carpenter Rootsweb list,
This is a little late because I was on vacation and the message I was
waiting for finally came in.
There has been some contention over the posting of some items at the first
part of the year and off and on now for some time.
I asked on the Rootsweb Admin forum the appropriateness of the first
message which some have declared wrong for this list because it mentioned
elements of religion/morals and of political opinions.
The message was not attacking anyone or violating any rule or guideline of
Rootsweb. The topic reflected opinions based on what he felt his ancestors
came to America for.
Being the Carpenter Rootsweb Administrator allows me some leeway in
deciding items off topic and certain threads to be allowed or terminated as
needed. I will continue to monitor as I feel it is right.
I would like all to review the following key points of the Rootsweb
Community Guidelines. Further detail is at the link provided here.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/rootsweb/community_guidelines.html
•Honest, open communication is essential, but it must be delivered with
respect for other members' thoughts and expressions.
As a community member, please:
•For starters, simply treat others the way you want to be treated.
•Respond to the subject (and not the person) if you disagree with
something in a post.
•Don't harass, abuse or threaten other members.
•Don't post any content that's vulgar, hateful, sexually explicit, illegal
or otherwise offensive.
As I have mentioned before
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/rootsweb/aup.html
If you don't agree with any of these terms and conditions, don't use the
Service. We may alter this agreement at our discretion and your continued
use after any change indicates your acceptance of that change. If you don't
want to be bound by a change, discontinue use of the Service.
IF YOU ARE DISSATISFIED WITH ANY PORTION OF THIS WEB SERVICE, OR WITH ANY
OF THESE TERMS OF USE, YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY IS TO DISCONTINUE
USING THIS WEB SERVICE.
More details at: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/rootsweb/aup.html
In summary, No where in Rootsweb does it say you can not discuss religion
or politics related to your ancestors or surname. Some may say that ANY
discussion of anything religious/morally related or hinting on any form of or
discussion of any governing is offensive.
That is the same as saying I am offended and my attack is justified
because I do not like the color of your skin, your name, your sex, ethnicity,
sexual orientation, religion or any other personal beliefs. That behavior is
improper and can be discrimination according to the laws of the State of
Utah and the USA.
Anyone conducting personal attacks or bully type behavior, will be warned
and/or terminated from the Carpenter Rootsweb list if such poor behavior
continues.
Thank you.
John L. Carpenter
PO Box 912
Walpole, NH 03608-0912
_johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com_ (mailto:johnlsaywhat@aol.com)
Carpenter Rootsweb Administrator
PS Yes, I had someone clean up my message to make my points as clear as
possible.
Further comments welcome off list to my personal E-Mail
This book is available from several Antiquarian book dealers like Heritage
books inc., and this is a company in Rutland VT name Tuttle Book Co. New
England Historic Society in Boston Mass. The book is bound and is a reprint
it is over 900 pages Not sure of price now but is probably in neighborhood
of $150.00. It was available on CD from Family Tree Maker But not sure of
that The Data disc is hard to use now with new version of Windows last time
I used it was Windows XP
John L. Carpenter
PO Box 912
Walpole,NH 03608-0912
In a message dated 1/16/2015 3:05:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
carpenter-request(a)rootsweb.com writes:
Carl,
A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY IN
AMERICA. Also known as the CARPENTER MEMORIAL by Amos Bugbee Carpenter and
printed in 1898. My copy has some 900 pages with many handwritten
corrections, book self corrections (from the back of the book) and other
updates. It is one of the scanned books of the Carpenters Encyclopedia of
Carpenters.
It is also on Google books (without corrections or handwritten notes) and
one or two other places for free. For example:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029839549
The Carpenter Memorial was an amazing book for its day. And while quite
large, it was quite typical of the genealogy books printed back then. The
negatives are ... no real sources, it relied mostly on self reporting, it
was done before computers with multiple book print fonts & typos and it
has
some significant family errors here and there.
The book has material that is not anywhere else but in the Carpenter
Encyclopedia and those genealogies that copied the CE.
And many of the families mentioned within its 900 pages have had
significant
corrections, adjustments and such since 1898. The Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA
Project has had some impact in sorting out the different Carpenter lines.
Two important things I should mention about the Carpenter Memorial.
First is that it documented and debunked the belief (scam - the Nigerian
scam of its day) that there was millions of pounds (English money)
awaiting
the rightful Carpenter heirs. The Carpenter Family Association of the mid
to
late 1800s bought that story hook, line and sinker. They fell for the scam
and the only ones who benefited financially was the lawyers who apparently
played along milking the benefits.
Second it helped reveal or direct researchers to the understanding that
some
Carpenter ancestry had been changed to prevent those families from
claiming
any monies that the real Carpenter were going to claim.
Yep, human nature has not changed much in the last 10,000 years and it
certainly has not changed in the last century and a half!
If you were a Loyalist Carpenter family removed from the former colonies
then you may have had your genealogy redone. Some Long Island Carpenters
became Zimmermans from Wales for example. If you were a Carpenter Rebel
family during the Civil War, then you may have your ancestry changed to
Zimmerman or otherwise disinherited.
We (Carpenter Researchers) have been sorting that mess for a while!
So, use such older genealogy books, like the Carpenter Memorial, with
caution. AND when you do use such old books, confirm, correct and document
what you find.
Remember to Document, Document and Document! Genealogy without
documentation can not be verified by our descendants.
I hope this helps.
John R. Carpenter
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
On 15 January 2015, John wrote:
> The Carpenter Memorial was an amazing book for its day. And while quite large, it was quite typical of the genealogy books printed back then. The negatives are ... no real sources, it relied mostly on self reporting, it
> was done before computers with multiple book print fonts & typos and it has some significant family errors here and there.
I agree with John’s second sentence above but not the first. The Carpenter Memorial is typical of (rather than amazing for) its time. As such (and as John says) it lacks source citations and relies heavily on submissions from Carpenter descendants. Amos Carpenter’s original research, moreover, often results in misinterpretations and unwarranted conclusions; a few of his pronouncements as to the contents of certain records are outright misrepresentations. The volume is impressive in appearance and for the extent of its coverage, but it is rife with errors--not just “here and there” but page after page.
> So, use such older genealogy books, like the Carpenter Memorial, with caution. AND when you do use such old books, confirm, correct and document what you find.
Amen. It has become so easy for compilers of family histories to use vanity presses or to self-publish that the majority of today’s published genealogies continue to be unreliable--as, it goes without saying, are electronic databases compiled from private-party submissions and the vast majority of online family trees. There is no substitute for primary research.
To improve skills, raise standards, etc., everyone--novices and old hands, researchers and writers--can benefit from resources such as these:
Robert Charles Anderson, _Elements of Genealogical Analysis_ (2014; paperback)
Val D. Greenwood, _The Researcher’s Guide to American Genealogy_, 3rd ed. (2013; paperback)
Patricia Law Hatcher, _Producing a Quality Family History_ (1996; paperback)
Henry B. Hoff and Penny Stratton, _Guide to Genealogical Writing: How to Write and Publish Your Family History_, 3rd ed. (2014; paperback)
Donald Lines Jacobus, _Genealogy as Pastime and Profession_ (1930; revised 1968; paperback)
Elizabeth Shown Mills, _Evidence Explained: Citing History Sources from Artifacts to Cyberspace_ (2007)
Board for Certification of Genealogists, _Genealogy Standards: Fiftieth Anniversary Edition_ (2014; paperback)
Gene Z.
Carl,
A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY IN
AMERICA. Also known as the CARPENTER MEMORIAL by Amos Bugbee Carpenter and
printed in 1898. My copy has some 900 pages with many handwritten
corrections, book self corrections (from the back of the book) and other
updates. It is one of the scanned books of the Carpenters Encyclopedia of
Carpenters.
It is also on Google books (without corrections or handwritten notes) and
one or two other places for free. For example:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924029839549
The Carpenter Memorial was an amazing book for its day. And while quite
large, it was quite typical of the genealogy books printed back then. The
negatives are ... no real sources, it relied mostly on self reporting, it
was done before computers with multiple book print fonts & typos and it has
some significant family errors here and there.
The book has material that is not anywhere else but in the Carpenter
Encyclopedia and those genealogies that copied the CE.
And many of the families mentioned within its 900 pages have had significant
corrections, adjustments and such since 1898. The Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA
Project has had some impact in sorting out the different Carpenter lines.
Two important things I should mention about the Carpenter Memorial.
First is that it documented and debunked the belief (scam - the Nigerian
scam of its day) that there was millions of pounds (English money) awaiting
the rightful Carpenter heirs. The Carpenter Family Association of the mid to
late 1800s bought that story hook, line and sinker. They fell for the scam
and the only ones who benefited financially was the lawyers who apparently
played along milking the benefits.
Second it helped reveal or direct researchers to the understanding that some
Carpenter ancestry had been changed to prevent those families from claiming
any monies that the real Carpenter were going to claim.
Yep, human nature has not changed much in the last 10,000 years and it
certainly has not changed in the last century and a half!
If you were a Loyalist Carpenter family removed from the former colonies
then you may have had your genealogy redone. Some Long Island Carpenters
became Zimmermans from Wales for example. If you were a Carpenter Rebel
family during the Civil War, then you may have your ancestry changed to
Zimmerman or otherwise disinherited.
We (Carpenter Researchers) have been sorting that mess for a while!
So, use such older genealogy books, like the Carpenter Memorial, with
caution. AND when you do use such old books, confirm, correct and document
what you find.
Remember to Document, Document and Document! Genealogy without
documentation can not be verified by our descendants.
I hope this helps.
John R. Carpenter
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Carpenter via
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 7:53 PM
To: CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Amos B. Carpenter's Book
I just came across the mention of Amos's book. I'm wondering how accurate
this book is considered. No flames, please. Carl Carpenter
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello Carpenter List,
Many people are confused about how Carpenters, Zimmermans and related names
intermix. Well, sometimes they don't. When genetics and genealogy mix we
often get some surprises. There is just not one ancestor for all the
Carpenters and Zimmermans in the last 10,000 years or so.
People who are involved in genetic genealogy should understand some basic
standards. And finally, there is some that are not confused with the
crosstalk and gimmicky legal print of the DNA testing companies. It was
published in Salt Lake City, Utah on January 11, 2015 and is well overdue.
Normally, you go to one list for this and another for that. On this list we
combine Carpenter & Zimmerman and related names with a mix of Carpenter
Cousins Y-DNA. For those who are new to this list, we are a little different
here. And like any family we sometimes disagree then deal with it and move
on.
If you have any questions on the Genetic genealogy standards mentioned
below, please contact me off the list and I will try to answer the best I
can. For some subjects, as needed, I will explain or elaborate to the list.
The following information was on the International Society of Genetic
Genealogy (ISOGG) list and permission has been given to share the following.
John R. Carpenter
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
Subject: [ISOGG] Digest Number 4017
1a. Genetic genealogy standards
Posted by: "Debbie Kennett"
Date: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:27 am ((PST))
Just in case any of you have not seen the news about the new genetic
genealogy standards you can now download them from this website;
<http://www.geneticgenealogystandards.com/>
http://www.geneticgenealogystandards.com/
There is further background on Blaine Bettinger's blog:
<http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2015/01/10/announcing-genetic-geneal...>
http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2015/01/10/announcing-genetic-geneal...
Judy Russell has also covered the standards on her Legal Genealogist blog:
<http://legalgenealogist.com/blog/2015/01/11/dna-good-news-bad-news/>
http://legalgenealogist.com/blog/2015/01/11/dna-good-news-bad-news/
Thanks to everyone involved for all their hard work on this initiative.
Debbie Kennett
I am very excited about learning the DNA test results of your relative.
Years ago some genealogists added Joseph and Samuel Carpenter of Knob Creek
area of upper Cleveland County, NC to the British (English) family which
originated in Massachusetts. That lineage remained a number of years until
a long deceased genealogist, Bonnie Mauney Summers challenged that view.
Both Joseph and Samuel settled in a predominately German area, married
German wives, and Joseph's signature was "Joseph Zimmerman".
Some years later I located the family of Margaret Caquelin, who was married
first to a Zimmerman (Carpenter) in Pennsylvania. She listed Joseph, Samuel
and Salome as her Carpenter children. All three of these persons have been
found in Cleveland County. My work in Carpenters A Plenty has confirmed a
German heritage for the brothers Joseph and Samuel and the sister Salome.
Yet, the proof in the pudding will be that DNA test. The descendants' DNA
of Peter, Jacob, Christian, and Johannes all match. They also match
Zimmermans from Pennsylvania and Virginia, all of whom came from
Switzerland. No DNA tests have so far been done for Samuel, who moved to
Kentucky, and your ancestor, Joseph, the father of Peter Carpenter.
I am very excited about this news and look forward to learning of the
results!!!
Robert Carpenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "mjoyce via" <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com>
To: <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2015 1:31 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Peter Carpenter and Margaret Ramsay - Zimmerman or
Rehoboth to be solved soon hopefully
>I am hoping that the discussion of the ancestry of Peter Carpenter and
> Margaret Ramsay will finally be solved. I convinced my cousin to have his
> dna tested. Just received word that his kit has been received for
> testing. Soon we will have dna evidence to like us to the correct branch,
> either Zimmermans or Rehoboths.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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21:02:00
I regret that my reply to the second of John R. Carpenter’s successive off-topic postings contained a couple of poorly chosen words. Ironically, while upbraiding John for abusing the purpose of a genealogical mailing list, I failed to maintain a proper tone of civility and was thereby guilty myself of violating mailing-list protocol. For this, I apologize to John and to the list.
Gene Z.
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.