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There's no indication in any of the known records pertaining to William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth and/or William1 Carpenter of Providence that the two men knew that they were distantly related. (One should keep in mind the 95 percent probability that their nearest common Carpenter ancestor preceded them by between 2 and 20 generations.) This, of course, doesn't mean that they didn't know it, only that we have no evidence permitting us to say so.
Neither do we have any evidence that they had known each other in England, though it's certainly not out of the question. It's clear that they didn't coordinate their respective emigrations: William2 of Rehoboth left England in 1638, while William1 of Providence had done so in 1635 (but not with the Arnolds, whom he had yet to meet). The pre-emigration home of William2 of Rehoboth was the village of Newtown, parish of Shalbourne, Wiltshire, about 22 miles from that of William1 of Providence, in the borough of Amesbury, parish of Amesbury, Wiltshire. The eventual Rehoboth Carpenters lived in Weymouth until 1644, when they joined with many others from there and surrounding towns in settling Rehoboth; the migration was spearheaded by Samuel Newman, minister of the Weymouth church. There are thus no grounds for speculating that the Weymouth/Rehoboth Carpenters' were drawn to the latter place by the presence of the other William at nearby Providence, where he had been for the previous eight years (and where he married Elizabeth Arnold about 1637 [not 1635, in England]).
Whether or not the two Williams had known anything of each other prior to emigrating, the similarity of their respective backgrounds and social statuses increased the likelihood that they would become acquainted in America: they were well-educated, same-named house-carpenters from Wiltshire who regularly occupied positions of authority in their respective towns and colonies. The earliest record I've found linking the two Williams, albeit indirectly, is a deed, dated in 1652, by which Benedict Arnold of Newport (brother-in-law of William1 Carpenter of Providence) sold several parcels of land in Pawtuxet (that part in northern Warwick) to William Carpenter Sr. of Rehoboth. (William2 left these lands to daughter Hannah and son Abiah.) The distance between Rehoboth (present-day Rumford, East Providence) and the mouth of the Pawtuxet River--with Pawtuxet (Providence, that part now Cranston) on the north side and Pawtuxet (Warwick) on the south--was/is about 10 miles. The Providence Carpenters had moved to the Pawtuxet section of the settlement by 1642. It's reasonable to suppose that the prominent men of Rehoboth and Providence all knew each other.
Gene Z.
--- On Feb 14, 2012, John Carpenter <texjonmac(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> My question which I suspect can't be answered completely is whether the two Williams knew they were related........they did know each other and actually lived pretty near, not far from Providence to Rehoboth, a day or two even back then, just a short drive thru heavy traffic now.?
Joe,
Interesting!
See updated article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bicknell_Carpenter
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project
http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:42 AM
To: CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Francis Bicknell Carpenter (b: 6 Aug 1830) - Portrait
of Mary Todd Lincoln is deemed to be a fraud
Looks like one of the Carpenter ancestors is making the news rounds this
morning. (The fraud itself wasn't perpetuated by Francis, but rather
someone else trying to pass of a work of art as having been painted by
Francis)
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/arts/design/portrait-of-mary-todd-linco...
Joe Carpenter
end
On Feb 14, 2012, John R. Carpenter replied to the following message he had received from John L. Carpenter:
> OK I heard previously they [Joseph2 and Hannah3 Carpenter] were "cuzins " cause William of Rehoboth stated in his will that he leaves ----- "to his daughter Hannah who Married my Cuzins son Joseph"
John R.'s response focused on Y-DNA test results; mine addresses the wording of the will.
Although John L.'s quotation is not correct, passages in the will of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth do refer to "Cozen Carpenter" and "my brother Carpenter," presumably Joseph2 of Warwick, Rhode Island, and Musketa Cove, Long Island, and his father, William1 of Providence, respectively. Misinterpretation of these phrases has produced claims (the first made by that great promulgator of inaccuracies Amos B. Carpenter) that Joseph2 and Hannah3 (Carpenter) Carpenter were first or (according to certain later writers) second cousins. As previously stated, Y-DNA test results virtually eliminate either possibility, showing with 95 percent certainty that the couple’s nearest common Carpenter ancestor preceded their respective fathers by between two and twenty generations.
But even before these results were available, there was good reason to doubt assertions of a first- or second-cousin relationship between Joseph2 Carpenter and his first wife, Hannah3 Carpenter. The term _cousin_ was used broadly at this time, often to denote _kinsman_, or relative by marriage; _brother_ was sometimes used similarly. In two letters written in 1636 to his namesake son, for example, Massachusetts Governor John Winthrop called the stepfather of the younger Winthrop’s then wife, Elizabeth Reade, “my brother [Hugh] Peter.” _Brother_ is thus used in these instances to mean _daughter-in-law's stepfather_. The Carpenter will's above-quoted phrases almost certainly reflect relationships created by Joseph and Hannah's having married before William2 made his partially dated will, no later than 10 December 1658; _cousin_ in this instance denotes _son-in-law_, and _brother_ means _son-in-law's father_. (The date often given for Joseph and Hannah's marriage, 21 April 1659, is highly suspect: not only is it undocumented, but it also coincides with the date on which her father's will was proved at Plymouth, presumably upon presentation by her mother, whom the will names "Exequitrice." Initial confusion and subsequent repetition have thus given Hannah’s marriage a widely accepted date that actually pertains to another event--one that would have absented her mother [and probably one or more brothers] from Rehoboth on the alleged date of the marriage.)
The foregoing is adapted from information presented in my online sketch of Joseph2 Carpenter (http://carpentercousins.com/Joseph2_RI&NY.pdf); of Hannah3 Carpenter (http://carpentercousins.com/Hannah3_Mass&RI&NY.pdf); and in Appendix 1 (pp. 64-66) of my 2005 NEHGR article about Abiah3 Carpenter (http://carpentercousins.com/Abiah3Carpenter(NEHGR159%5bJan2005%5d).pdf).
In a recent posting that also bears on the cousin issue, I discussed the unlikelihood that William1 Carpenter of Shalbourne (father of William2 of Rehoboth and grandfather of Hannah3) and Richard Carpenter of Amesbury (father of William1 of Providence and grandfather of Joseph2 of Warwick, R.I., and Musketa Cove, L.I.) were sons of Robert Carpenter of Marden.
Gene Z.
My question which I suspect can't be answered completely is whether the two Williams knew they were related........they did know each other and actually lived pretty near, not far from Providence to Rehoboth, a day or two even back then, just a short drive thru heavy traffic now.
Procrastinate NOW! Don't put it off! Ellen de Generes
--- On Mon, 2/13/12, John R. Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)cox.net> wrote:
From: John R. Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)cox.net>
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] the 2 Williams and DNA
To: Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com, "Carpenter Rootsweb" <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:42 PM
John L.,
The two William Carpenter immigrants had children who married each other. The children who married (Joseph & Hannah) were not first or second cousins, but a minimum of kissing cousins. Kissing cousins are 3rd cousins or better.
There is no doubt that the two William Carpenters were related genetically. They were 24/25 marker matches – See groups 2 & 3 in the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project. A minimum of 2 up to 20 generations! See below.
I hope this helps.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project
http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm
The following is from the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project web page:
(From the Group 2 & 3 discussion)
... The continuing match between Groups 2 and 3 emphasizes that they are closely related, while the one new mismatch turns out to be an additional means of distinguishing between the groups. The new inter-group mismatch on marker Y-GATA-C4 (more properly known as DYS635) has now been amply confirmed by many further results either found at Sorenson or ordered as "a la carte" tests at FTDNA.
Based on this now-confirmed discrepancy, along with the originally discovered difference at DYS464d, and the additional difference at DYS413a, we can state with 95% confidence that the most recent common ancestor of the two groups was more than 2 generations before the immigrants and less than about 20. Therefore, the DNA testing has very nearly ruled out the often-repeated claim that the Williams were first cousins. The most likely estimate is about 7 generations, but that is a very rough estimate, and the 95% confidence interval is a more reasonable description of what the DNA is telling us. For a detailed and current understanding of the two William Carpenter immigrants and their immediate families, see the Zubrinsky set of sketches.
http://www.carpentercousins.com/Wm2_Rehoboth.pdf
>From Page 7 & 8.
It is often said (though not by reliable sources) that William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth was a first cousin of William1 Carpenter of Providence (son of RichardA Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire) and also of the daughters of AlexanderA Carpenter of Wrington, Somersetshire, and Leiden, Netherlands, four of whom came to Plymouth. This derives from Amos Carpenter’s unsupported claim that William1 (Bevis, 1638), RichardA, and AlexanderA Carpenter were brothers (see Carpenter [1898] 34; William1 of Shalbourne sketch, COMMENTS). No evidence has been found even hinting at a link between the Wrington Carpenters, on the one hand, and either of the other two aforementioned families, on the other; a connection is highly improbable. Traditional genealogical research methods provide good reasons to doubt also that Rehoboth William and Providence William were closely related (see NEHGR 159:64–66, 67n63). Results of recent genetic testing coordinated by the Carpenter
Cousins Y-DNA Project support this conclusion: Based on a number of 67-marker tests, “we can state with 95% confidence that the most recent common ancestor of the two groups [descendants of the Providence and Rehoboth Carpenters, respectively] was more than 2 generations before the immigrants and less than about 20. Therefore, the DNA testing has very nearly ruled out the often-repeated claim that the Williams were first cousins. The most likely estimate is about 7 generations, but 8 that is a very rough estimate, and the 95% confidence interval is a more reasonable description of what the DNA is telling us” (Carpenter Cousins).
From: Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 4:18 PM
To: jrcrin001(a)cox.net
Subject: Williams and DNA
OK I heard previously there were "cuzins " cause William of Rehoboth stated in his will that he leaves ----- "to his daughter Hannah who Married my Cuzins son Joseph"
Nobody was sure why he spelled Cousin that way ? jest
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
John L.,
The two William Carpenter immigrants had children who married each other. The children who married (Joseph & Hannah) were not first or second cousins, but a minimum of kissing cousins. Kissing cousins are 3rd cousins or better.
There is no doubt that the two William Carpenters were related genetically. They were 24/25 marker matches – See groups 2 & 3 in the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project. A minimum of 2 up to 20 generations! See below.
I hope this helps.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project
http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm
The following is from the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project web page:
(From the Group 2 & 3 discussion)
... The continuing match between Groups 2 and 3 emphasizes that they are closely related, while the one new mismatch turns out to be an additional means of distinguishing between the groups. The new inter-group mismatch on marker Y-GATA-C4 (more properly known as DYS635) has now been amply confirmed by many further results either found at Sorenson or ordered as "a la carte" tests at FTDNA.
Based on this now-confirmed discrepancy, along with the originally discovered difference at DYS464d, and the additional difference at DYS413a, we can state with 95% confidence that the most recent common ancestor of the two groups was more than 2 generations before the immigrants and less than about 20. Therefore, the DNA testing has very nearly ruled out the often-repeated claim that the Williams were first cousins. The most likely estimate is about 7 generations, but that is a very rough estimate, and the 95% confidence interval is a more reasonable description of what the DNA is telling us. For a detailed and current understanding of the two William Carpenter immigrants and their immediate families, see the Zubrinsky set of sketches.
http://www.carpentercousins.com/Wm2_Rehoboth.pdf
>From Page 7 & 8.
It is often said (though not by reliable sources) that William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth was a first cousin of William1 Carpenter of Providence (son of RichardA Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire) and also of the daughters of AlexanderA Carpenter of Wrington, Somersetshire, and Leiden, Netherlands, four of whom came to Plymouth. This derives from Amos Carpenter’s unsupported claim that William1 (Bevis, 1638), RichardA, and AlexanderA Carpenter were brothers (see Carpenter [1898] 34; William1 of Shalbourne sketch, COMMENTS). No evidence has been found even hinting at a link between the Wrington Carpenters, on the one hand, and either of the other two aforementioned families, on the other; a connection is highly improbable. Traditional genealogical research methods provide good reasons to doubt also that Rehoboth William and Providence William were closely related (see NEHGR 159:64–66, 67n63). Results of recent genetic testing coordinated by the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project support this conclusion: Based on a number of 67-marker tests, “we can state with 95% confidence that the most recent common ancestor of the two groups [descendants of the Providence and Rehoboth Carpenters, respectively] was more than 2 generations before the immigrants and less than about 20. Therefore, the DNA testing has very nearly ruled out the often-repeated claim that the Williams were first cousins. The most likely estimate is about 7 generations, but 8 that is a very rough estimate, and the 95% confidence interval is a more reasonable description of what the DNA is telling us” (Carpenter Cousins).
From: Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 4:18 PM
To: jrcrin001(a)cox.net
Subject: Williams and DNA
OK I heard previously there were "cuzins " cause William of Rehoboth stated in his will that he leaves ----- "to his daughter Hannah who Married my Cuzins son Joseph"
Nobody was sure why he spelled Cousin that way ? jest
Looks like one of the Carpenter ancestors is making the news rounds this
morning. (The fraud itself wasn't perpetuated by Francis, but rather
someone else trying to pass of a work of art as having been painted by
Francis)
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/arts/design/portrait-of-mary-todd-linco...
Joe Carpenter
Hello John,
We are sorry to hear about the passing of you brother. We send our thoughts and prayers for you and your family.
Sincerely,
Jeff & Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 11:23:18 AM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Obiturary of Coles J. Carpenter
Coles J. Carpenter
|
Coles was of the R.I. branch and my brother
Carpenter, Coles J. EAST GREENBUSH Coles J. Carpenter, 65, formerly of
Brunswick, N.Y., entered into the presence of His Lord and Savior on Thursday,
February 9, 2012, with the love, care and support of his family, friends
and the wonderful staff of the Hospice Unit at the V.A. Hospital in Albany,
following a lengthy battle with cancer. Born in Jamaica, Queens, he was the
son of the late Coles E. and Alice Lutz Carpenter. He was raised and
educated in Lindenhurst, N.Y., graduating from Lindenhurst High School in 1965,
after which he enlisted in the U. S. Marine Corps. Sergeant Carpenter
participated in multiple operations against the Communist Insurgent Forces in
the Republic of Viet Nam. He was awarded two _Bronze Stars_
(http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/bronze-star/?personid=155823594&affi...) ,
Navy Commendation Medal, Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service Medal,
Viet Nam Service Medal, Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon, Combat Action Ribbon,
USMC Rifle & Pistol Badges, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal and
Gallantry Cross Medal. Following his active duty, Sgt. Carpenter served in the U.
S. _Army_
(http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/army/?personid=155823594&affiliateID...) Reserve where he earned his LPN designation. Following his
time in the service, Coles served as an auto mechanic, then as an LPN at the
V.A. Hospital in Albany. Throughout his years, he volunteered for various
organizations and was always generous to those in need. He is survived by
six children, Tara Kim Russell and her husband, Kevin, of East Greenbush,
Coles J.W. Carpenter and his wife, Jill, of Cobleskill, and Jeffrey, Amanda,
Sarah and Andrew Carpenter, all of Lansingburgh; two grandchildren, Evan
Carpenter and Brayden Russell; two brothers, John Carpenter of N.H. and Frank
Carpenter of Long Island; many nieces and nephews. A funeral service will
be held at 7 p.m. on Sunday evening at the Morris - Stebbins - Miner &
Sanvidge Funeral Home, 312 Hoosick St., Troy, NY 12180. Friends are invited and
may call at the funeral home for 3 hours prior to the service, beginning
at 4 p.m. The interment will take place on Monday morning at 10:30 a.m. in
the Gerald B. Solomon National Cemetery, 200 Duell Road, Schuylerville, NY
12871. (Family and friends should meet within the gates of the cemetery 15
minutes prior to the time of the interment.) In lieu of flowers,
contributions may be made to "The _American Cancer Society_
(http://media2.legacy.com/adlink/5306/1486941/0/3380/AdId=1103286;BnId=1;i...ACS;nodecode=yes;link=https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow
/Legacy/index?dn=mem&fn=Coles&ln=Carpenter) 's Hope Club", with a memo
note directing it to the "Children's Program and /or Support Services." The
address is: One Penny Lane, Latham, NY 12110.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Condolences, and thanks for sharing his obit...
CC
On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 6:23 PM, <Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Coles J. Carpenter
> |
> Coles was of the R.I. branch and my brother
>
>
>
>
> Carpenter, Coles J. EAST GREENBUSH Coles J. Carpenter, 65, formerly of
> Brunswick, N.Y., entered into the presence of His Lord and Savior on
> Thursday,
> February 9, 2012, with the love, care and support of his family, friends
> and the wonderful staff of the Hospice Unit at the V.A. Hospital in
> Albany,
> following a lengthy battle with cancer. Born in Jamaica, Queens, he was
> the
> son of the late Coles E. and Alice Lutz Carpenter. He was raised and
> educated in Lindenhurst, N.Y., graduating from Lindenhurst High School in
> 1965,
> after which he enlisted in the U. S. Marine Corps. Sergeant Carpenter
> participated in multiple operations against the Communist Insurgent
> Forces in
> the Republic of Viet Nam. He was awarded two _Bronze Stars_
> (
> http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/bronze-star/?personid=155823594&affi...)
> ,
> Navy Commendation Medal, Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service
> Medal,
> Viet Nam Service Medal, Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon, Combat Action
> Ribbon,
> USMC Rifle & Pistol Badges, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal and
> Gallantry Cross Medal. Following his active duty, Sgt. Carpenter served
> in the U.
> S. _Army_
> (
> http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/army/?personid=155823594&affiliateID...)
> Reserve where he earned his LPN designation. Following his
> time in the service, Coles served as an auto mechanic, then as an LPN at
> the
> V.A. Hospital in Albany. Throughout his years, he volunteered for various
> organizations and was always generous to those in need. He is survived by
> six children, Tara Kim Russell and her husband, Kevin, of East Greenbush,
> Coles J.W. Carpenter and his wife, Jill, of Cobleskill, and Jeffrey,
> Amanda,
> Sarah and Andrew Carpenter, all of Lansingburgh; two grandchildren, Evan
> Carpenter and Brayden Russell; two brothers, John Carpenter of N.H. and
> Frank
> Carpenter of Long Island; many nieces and nephews. A funeral service will
> be held at 7 p.m. on Sunday evening at the Morris - Stebbins - Miner &
> Sanvidge Funeral Home, 312 Hoosick St., Troy, NY 12180. Friends are
> invited and
> may call at the funeral home for 3 hours prior to the service, beginning
> at 4 p.m. The interment will take place on Monday morning at 10:30 a.m. in
> the Gerald B. Solomon National Cemetery, 200 Duell Road, Schuylerville, NY
> 12871. (Family and friends should meet within the gates of the cemetery 15
> minutes prior to the time of the interment.) In lieu of flowers,
> contributions may be made to "The _American Cancer Society_
> (
> http://media2.legacy.com/adlink/5306/1486941/0/3380/AdId=1103286;BnId=1;i...
> ACS;nodecode=yes;link=
> https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow
> /Legacy/index?dn=mem&fn=Coles&ln=Carpenter) 's Hope Club", with a memo
> note directing it to the "Children's Program and /or Support Services."
> The
> address is: One Penny Lane, Latham, NY 12110.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Hello All,
As in 2006, I support Gene’s conclusions, I have seen the evidence and know the line was in error.
Unfortunately, we have been unable to find the correct line with the tools that have been available to us over the last many years. It may take a detailed search by a dedicated English will & specialist researcher to find such information in the English archives.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project
http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm
Where did Cody get his information? Please see:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/CARPENTER/2006-02/1140936294
From: "John R Carpenter 2" < johnrcarpenter(a)cox.net>
Subject: Re: Carpenters back to De Melun - English Carpenter line nullified
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:44:54 -0800
References: bb.69274caa.312f818a(a)aol.com
Hello,
I agree with Gene that the English Carpenter line has been nullified. Efforts to confirm earlier research in English wills found a significant error in transcription. Please see the following web page.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/John-R-Carpenter/FILE/00...
A copy of Richard Carpenter's 1503 will is located at:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/John-R-Carpenter/PHOTO/0...
Regarding the Melun Family and William "the carpenter" De Melun. Please see:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/John-R-Carpenter/FILE/00...
Remember that while William "the carpenter" De Melun was a historical person and was one of the first to use "Carpenter" it was his son, also named William that started to use "Carpenter" as a surname. The father was a supporter of the French Crown and the son was a supporter of the English King. When the French arrow that pierced the breast of William Carpenter (the son) did its "noble deed", the Church Bells in Paris were rung in celebration.
There is no documentation to prove that the William Carpenters (b. abt 1042 & abt 1067) of Melun, France were connected with the two William Carpenter immigrants from England that came to America in the 1630s.
The Carpenter CD (CE CD 2001) had a speculated line of connection based on previous researchers. Please read the notes!
All of this is part of the Carpenter CD project web page at:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/c/a/r/John-R-Carpenter/index.html
If you have any questions, please let me know.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
R.I.P. Chuck - We'll miss you.
----- Original Message -----
From: < GeneZub(a)aol.com>
To: < CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Carpenters back to De Melun
>
> It is (and will continue to be) necessary from time to time to repeat for those still unaware of it (there are many) that the ancestry of William1 Carpenter of Providence is known only as far as his father, Richard Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire ...
Thank you, Gene, for al of us with questions.
barb andrews
On Feb 12, 2012, at 1:44 AM, Gene Zubrinsky wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2012, Bob Carpenter asked, "Where did Cody Carpenter get his info [pertaining to the invalidity of most of the ancient ancestry still widely attributed to the Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters and the dubiousness of the rest]?"
>
> He got it first from my 23 February 2006 posting on this mailing list:
>
> "It is (and will continue to be) necessary from time to time to repeat for those still unaware of it (there are many) that the ancestry of William1 Carpenter of Providence is known only as far as his father, Richard Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire (whose wife was _perhaps_ Alice Knight of neighboring Newton Tony [certainly not Susanna Trevelian of Nettlecomb, Somerset]). The ancestry of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth (b. ca. 1605)--whose wife was Abigail Briant (not Searles or Bennett)--is known only as far as his father, William1 (b. ca. 1576), for whom there is no record subsequent to his listing on the passenger list of the _Bevis_ in 1638. (The wife of William1 was _perhaps_ the Alice Carpenter buried 25 January 1637[/8] in Shalbourne, Wiltshire/Berkshire, where William2 married Abigail [28 April 1625] and lived thereafter until at least 20 April 1637, when their then youngest son was buried there.)
>
> "The purported connection to Robert Carpenter of Marden, Wiltshire (d. 1607), is unproved and unlikely; the claimed line back to Melun is absolutely nullified at Rev. Richard Carpenter of Herefordshire and Wiltshire (d. 1503).
>
> "For details and primary-source citations, see _The American Genealogist_, 70(1995):193-204, and _The New England Historical and Genealogical Register_, 159(2005):65-67."
>
> Cody contacted me about the posting, and I referred him to the _Carpenter Sketches_ website, whose main page (http://carpentercousins.com/carplink.htm) contains links to a dozen sketches pertaining to the early generations of Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters and their English origins; first uploaded in 2008, they are revised as needed. The main page also has links to relevant Carpenter-related journal articles, including the two cited above. Two of the sketches pertain, respectively, to Richard Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire (father of William1 Carpenter of Providence), and William1 Carpenter of Shalbourne, Wiltshire (father of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth). These sketches and the two articles cited in the last paragraph of the posting quoted above provide details supporting the statements made in the posting's first two paragraphs.
>
> Nullification of the Carpenter ancestry back from Rev. Richard Carpenter derives from a proper reading of his will: legatees Robert and Peter (the only ones whose surnames are not given) are each described not as a son (as at least one transcription has it) but as "my s[er]v[a]nt." The bequest to Robert, moreover, includes a "lyvery gowne," typically a servant's attire. There is no evidence that Rev. Richard Carpenter ever married, let alone had children.
>
> The claim that the paternal grandparents of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth and William1 Carpenter of Providence were Robert Carpenter of Marden, Wiltshire (d. 1607), and his widow, Elinor, is highly dubious. Neither Robert's will nor any other known document indicates which, if any, of his children were fathered with Elinor. More important, while his will does name among his sons a William and a Richard, the assertion that either, let alone both, were identical with William1 Carpenter (whom we now know was of Shalbourne) and Richard Carpenter of Amesbury rests on nothing more than same (very common) names, compatible chronology, and rough proximity. That Robert's son Richard is the implied recipient of his father's Marden real estate makes it highly doubtful that he would own a house in the borough of Amesbury (albeit about 15 miles away). Other evidence strongly suggests that Richard of Amesbury had come from the neighboring parish of Newton Tony (see page 4 of the Ri!
chard of Amesbury sketch [http://carpentercousins.com/RichardA_Amesbury.pdf]). While it is not impossible that William1 of Shalbourne was the son of Robert of Marden (the latter is about 17 miles from Shalbourne and 23 miles from Amesbury), actual evidence of it has yet to be found. (That a relationship is _possible_ is a far cry from "genealogical proof" that it exists; most anything is possible.)
>
> Finally, traditional genealogical research methods have provided good reasons to doubt that William1 of Shalbourne and Richard of Amesbury were brothers, and genetic testing strongly supports this conclusion. Based on a number of 67-marker tests, "we can state with 95% confidence that the most recent common ancestor of the two groups [descendants of the Providence and Rehoboth Carpenters, respectively] was more than 2 generations before the immigrants and less than about 20. Therefore, the DNA testing has very nearly ruled out the oft-repeated claim that the Williams [William2 of Rehoboth and William1 of Providence] were first cousins. The most likely estimate is about 7 generations, but that is a very rough estimate, and the 95% confidence interval is a more reasonable description of what the DNA is telling us” (John F. Chandler, webpage maintainer, Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project [http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm#toc006], coordinated by John R. Carpenter).
>
> Inadequate research, sloppy reasoning, and wishful thinking often combine in genealogy to produce unsupported, if not distorted, claims that, through indiscriminate acceptance and repetition, become articles of faith. I nevertheless nurture (perhaps naively) the hope that this posting and the sources it cites might combat somewhat the misinformation that continues to inhabit our pastime's Carpenter corner.
>
> Gene Z.
>
> Eugene Cole Zubrinsky, FASG
> 559 Pala Drive
> Ojai, Calif. 93023
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
On Feb 11, 2012, Bob Carpenter asked, "Where did Cody Carpenter get his info [pertaining to the invalidity of most of the ancient ancestry still widely attributed to the Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters and the dubiousness of the rest]?"
He got it first from my 23 February 2006 posting on this mailing list:
"It is (and will continue to be) necessary from time to time to repeat for those still unaware of it (there are many) that the ancestry of William1 Carpenter of Providence is known only as far as his father, Richard Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire (whose wife was _perhaps_ Alice Knight of neighboring Newton Tony [certainly not Susanna Trevelian of Nettlecomb, Somerset]). The ancestry of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth (b. ca. 1605)--whose wife was Abigail Briant (not Searles or Bennett)--is known only as far as his father, William1 (b. ca. 1576), for whom there is no record subsequent to his listing on the passenger list of the _Bevis_ in 1638. (The wife of William1 was _perhaps_ the Alice Carpenter buried 25 January 1637[/8] in Shalbourne, Wiltshire/Berkshire, where William2 married Abigail [28 April 1625] and lived thereafter until at least 20 April 1637, when their then youngest son was buried there.)
"The purported connection to Robert Carpenter of Marden, Wiltshire (d. 1607), is unproved and unlikely; the claimed line back to Melun is absolutely nullified at Rev. Richard Carpenter of Herefordshire and Wiltshire (d. 1503).
"For details and primary-source citations, see _The American Genealogist_, 70(1995):193-204, and _The New England Historical and Genealogical Register_, 159(2005):65-67."
Cody contacted me about the posting, and I referred him to the _Carpenter Sketches_ website, whose main page (http://carpentercousins.com/carplink.htm) contains links to a dozen sketches pertaining to the early generations of Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters and their English origins; first uploaded in 2008, they are revised as needed. The main page also has links to relevant Carpenter-related journal articles, including the two cited above. Two of the sketches pertain, respectively, to Richard Carpenter of Amesbury, Wiltshire (father of William1 Carpenter of Providence), and William1 Carpenter of Shalbourne, Wiltshire (father of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth). These sketches and the two articles cited in the last paragraph of the posting quoted above provide details supporting the statements made in the posting's first two paragraphs.
Nullification of the Carpenter ancestry back from Rev. Richard Carpenter derives from a proper reading of his will: legatees Robert and Peter (the only ones whose surnames are not given) are each described not as a son (as at least one transcription has it) but as "my s[er]v[a]nt." The bequest to Robert, moreover, includes a "lyvery gowne," typically a servant's attire. There is no evidence that Rev. Richard Carpenter ever married, let alone had children.
The claim that the paternal grandparents of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth and William1 Carpenter of Providence were Robert Carpenter of Marden, Wiltshire (d. 1607), and his widow, Elinor, is highly dubious. Neither Robert's will nor any other known document indicates which, if any, of his children were fathered with Elinor. More important, while his will does name among his sons a William and a Richard, the assertion that either, let alone both, were identical with William1 Carpenter (whom we now know was of Shalbourne) and Richard Carpenter of Amesbury rests on nothing more than same (very common) names, compatible chronology, and rough proximity. That Robert's son Richard is the implied recipient of his father's Marden real estate makes it highly doubtful that he would own a house in the borough of Amesbury (albeit about 15 miles away). Other evidence strongly suggests that Richard of Amesbury had come from the neighboring parish of Newton Tony (see page 4 of the Richard of Amesbury sketch [http://carpentercousins.com/RichardA_Amesbury.pdf]). While it is not impossible that William1 of Shalbourne was the son of Robert of Marden (the latter is about 17 miles from Shalbourne and 23 miles from Amesbury), actual evidence of it has yet to be found. (That a relationship is _possible_ is a far cry from "genealogical proof" that it exists; most anything is possible.)
Finally, traditional genealogical research methods have provided good reasons to doubt that William1 of Shalbourne and Richard of Amesbury were brothers, and genetic testing strongly supports this conclusion. Based on a number of 67-marker tests, "we can state with 95% confidence that the most recent common ancestor of the two groups [descendants of the Providence and Rehoboth Carpenters, respectively] was more than 2 generations before the immigrants and less than about 20. Therefore, the DNA testing has very nearly ruled out the oft-repeated claim that the Williams [William2 of Rehoboth and William1 of Providence] were first cousins. The most likely estimate is about 7 generations, but that is a very rough estimate, and the 95% confidence interval is a more reasonable description of what the DNA is telling us” (John F. Chandler, webpage maintainer, Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project [http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm#toc006], coordinated by John R. Carpenter).
Inadequate research, sloppy reasoning, and wishful thinking often combine in genealogy to produce unsupported, if not distorted, claims that, through indiscriminate acceptance and repetition, become articles of faith. I nevertheless nurture (perhaps naively) the hope that this posting and the sources it cites might combat somewhat the misinformation that continues to inhabit our pastime's Carpenter corner.
Gene Z.
Eugene Cole Zubrinsky, FASG
559 Pala Drive
Ojai, Calif. 93023
I am so sorry, John.
Phoebe in CA
In a message dated 2/11/2012 8:24:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com writes:
Coles J. Carpenter
|
Coles was of the R.I. branch and my brother
Carpenter, Coles J. EAST GREENBUSH Coles J. Carpenter, 65, formerly of
Brunswick, N.Y., entered into the presence of His Lord and Savior on
Thursday,
February 9, 2012, with the love, care and support of his family, friends
and the wonderful staff of the Hospice Unit at the V.A. Hospital in
Albany,
following a lengthy battle with cancer. Born in Jamaica, Queens, he was
the
son of the late Coles E. and Alice Lutz Carpenter. He was raised and
educated in Lindenhurst, N.Y., graduating from Lindenhurst High School in
1965,
after which he enlisted in the U. S. Marine Corps. Sergeant Carpenter
participated in multiple operations against the Communist Insurgent
Forces in
the Republic of Viet Nam. He was awarded two _Bronze Stars_
(http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/bronze-star/?personid=155823594&affili
ateID=1329) ,
Navy Commendation Medal, Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service
Medal,
Viet Nam Service Medal, Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon, Combat Action
Ribbon,
USMC Rifle & Pistol Badges, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal and
Gallantry Cross Medal. Following his active duty, Sgt. Carpenter served
in the U.
S. _Army_
(http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/army/?personid=155823594&affiliateID=1
329) Reserve where he earned his LPN designation. Following his
time in the service, Coles served as an auto mechanic, then as an LPN at
the
V.A. Hospital in Albany. Throughout his years, he volunteered for various
organizations and was always generous to those in need. He is survived by
six children, Tara Kim Russell and her husband, Kevin, of East Greenbush,
Coles J.W. Carpenter and his wife, Jill, of Cobleskill, and Jeffrey,
Amanda,
Sarah and Andrew Carpenter, all of Lansingburgh; two grandchildren, Evan
Carpenter and Brayden Russell; two brothers, John Carpenter of N.H. and
Frank
Carpenter of Long Island; many nieces and nephews. A funeral service will
be held at 7 p.m. on Sunday evening at the Morris - Stebbins - Miner &
Sanvidge Funeral Home, 312 Hoosick St., Troy, NY 12180. Friends are
invited and
may call at the funeral home for 3 hours prior to the service, beginning
at 4 p.m. The interment will take place on Monday morning at 10:30 a.m.
in
the Gerald B. Solomon National Cemetery, 200 Duell Road, Schuylerville,
NY
12871. (Family and friends should meet within the gates of the cemetery
15
minutes prior to the time of the interment.) In lieu of flowers,
contributions may be made to "The _American Cancer Society_
(http://media2.legacy.com/adlink/5306/1486941/0/3380/AdId=1103286;BnId=1;iti
me=977025675;ku=1192175;key=
ACS;nodecode=yes;link=https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow
/Legacy/index?dn=mem&fn=Coles&ln=Carpenter) 's Hope Club", with a memo
note directing it to the "Children's Program and /or Support Services."
The
address is: One Penny Lane, Latham, NY 12110.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject
and the body of the message
I have no idea. Who is he?
Robert C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Carpenter" <bob-carpenter(a)comcast.net>
To: <carpenter(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] (no subject)
> Where did Cody Carpenter get his info?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cody Carpenter" <codycarpenter(a)carolina.rr.com>
> To: <CARPENTER(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 7:23 PM
> Subject: [CARPENTER] (no subject)
>
>
>> I've just been reading that the Rehoboth Carpenter line's descent from
>> The
>> Rev'd Richard Carpenter back has been completely nullified, and the
>> descent from Robert Carpenter of Upton-Scudamore is doubtful at best.
>> The
>> article is a few years old, so I'm wondering if any more information has
>> been discovered. It's quite a disappointment to go from thinking you have
>> information on your line back to 1303 only to find that much of it is due
>> to a simple error in reading a will.
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
I've just been reading that the Rehoboth Carpenter line's descent from The Rev'd Richard Carpenter back has been completely nullified, and the descent from Robert Carpenter of Upton-Scudamore is doubtful at best. The article is a few years old, so I'm wondering if any more information has been discovered. It's quite a disappointment to go from thinking you have information on your line back to 1303 only to find that much of it is due to a simple error in reading a will.
Coles J. Carpenter
|
Coles was of the R.I. branch and my brother
Carpenter, Coles J. EAST GREENBUSH Coles J. Carpenter, 65, formerly of
Brunswick, N.Y., entered into the presence of His Lord and Savior on Thursday,
February 9, 2012, with the love, care and support of his family, friends
and the wonderful staff of the Hospice Unit at the V.A. Hospital in Albany,
following a lengthy battle with cancer. Born in Jamaica, Queens, he was the
son of the late Coles E. and Alice Lutz Carpenter. He was raised and
educated in Lindenhurst, N.Y., graduating from Lindenhurst High School in 1965,
after which he enlisted in the U. S. Marine Corps. Sergeant Carpenter
participated in multiple operations against the Communist Insurgent Forces in
the Republic of Viet Nam. He was awarded two _Bronze Stars_
(http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/bronze-star/?personid=155823594&affi...) ,
Navy Commendation Medal, Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service Medal,
Viet Nam Service Medal, Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon, Combat Action Ribbon,
USMC Rifle & Pistol Badges, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal and
Gallantry Cross Medal. Following his active duty, Sgt. Carpenter served in the U.
S. _Army_
(http://www.legacy.com/memorial-sites/army/?personid=155823594&affiliateID...) Reserve where he earned his LPN designation. Following his
time in the service, Coles served as an auto mechanic, then as an LPN at the
V.A. Hospital in Albany. Throughout his years, he volunteered for various
organizations and was always generous to those in need. He is survived by
six children, Tara Kim Russell and her husband, Kevin, of East Greenbush,
Coles J.W. Carpenter and his wife, Jill, of Cobleskill, and Jeffrey, Amanda,
Sarah and Andrew Carpenter, all of Lansingburgh; two grandchildren, Evan
Carpenter and Brayden Russell; two brothers, John Carpenter of N.H. and Frank
Carpenter of Long Island; many nieces and nephews. A funeral service will
be held at 7 p.m. on Sunday evening at the Morris - Stebbins - Miner &
Sanvidge Funeral Home, 312 Hoosick St., Troy, NY 12180. Friends are invited and
may call at the funeral home for 3 hours prior to the service, beginning
at 4 p.m. The interment will take place on Monday morning at 10:30 a.m. in
the Gerald B. Solomon National Cemetery, 200 Duell Road, Schuylerville, NY
12871. (Family and friends should meet within the gates of the cemetery 15
minutes prior to the time of the interment.) In lieu of flowers,
contributions may be made to "The _American Cancer Society_
(http://media2.legacy.com/adlink/5306/1486941/0/3380/AdId=1103286;BnId=1;i...ACS;nodecode=yes;link=https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow
/Legacy/index?dn=mem&fn=Coles&ln=Carpenter) 's Hope Club", with a memo
note directing it to the "Children's Program and /or Support Services." The
address is: One Penny Lane, Latham, NY 12110.
Rosie,
Please see Group 22 basic lineages at:
http://www.carpentercousins.com/generallineage.htm#g22
If you have a living male Carpenter on your line that descends from John
CARPENTER b: Salzburg, Hameln-Pyrmont, Niedersachsen, Germany then you may
confirm the genetic connection with Y-DNA via the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA
Project.
I hope this helps. If you have questions, please email me at:
jrcrin001(a)cox.net
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project
http://carpentercousins.com/carpdna.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: RMW
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 10:07 AM
To: List, Carpenter
Subject: [CARPENTER] Carpenter, Petry, Kerker, Wilhoite, Hines, Hurst,
Allen,Scholl, King,
New to list, and below is our line. Anyone on list researching this line?
If so would like to collaborate with you. Hopefully, we can each fill in
each others blanks. My direct email is ancestorhunt(a)sbcglobal.net
.Thanks, Rosie
1 John CARPENTER b: Salzburg, Hameln-Pyrmont, Niedersachsen, Germany d: 16
Sep 1782 Cullpepper Co., VA .. +Anna Barbara KERKER b: 02 Apr 1709
Zazenhausen, Stuttgart, Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany d: 1787 Cullpepper Co.,
VA
2 William CARPENTER b: Abt. 1730 Madison Co., VA ...
Although I have Rehoboth Carpenters in my mother's line, these three Carpenter's Station fellows are uncles in my father's line (the
brothers of my 3X great grandmother, Margaret Carpenter Pence) and are indeed Zimmerman/Carpenters from Rockingham County, VA. As stated in the article, their immigrant father was a Swiss, George Zimmerman (Carpenter) b. 02 Jan
1741 who died at Valley Forge in March 1778. Their home is still standing and is near Harrisonburg, Rockingham, VA.
There is a totally different bunch of Zimmerman/Carpenters from Orange, Culpeper, Madison County, VA. who were part of
the Germanna Colonies there. They are the ones that Rosie was inquiring about.The original immigrant for that bunch was Johann Zimmerman. See the following list of original settlers on the website of the Memorial Foundation of the Germanna Colonies: http://www.germanna.org/original_settlers
There are indeed many Carpenters or Zimmerman/Carpenters who built our country in more ways than one.
--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com <Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com> wrote:
From: Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com <Johnlsaywhat(a)aol.com>
Subject: [CARPENTER] Web site for Kentucky Carpenters
To: CARPENTER-request(a)rootsweb.com
Cc: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 2:14 AM
_http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~carpenter/manuscript.html
_
(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~carpenter/manuscript.html)
Actually these are Zimmermans
-------------------------------
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the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank you for writing. I apprecite your expertise ande comments on the
family.
The connection I have is mainly from a copy of a letter written to Horace
Lee Carpenter by Jonathan Beatty Carpenter: Rutherfordton, N.C.. January 29,
1914. At the very first, he writes:
"William and his son, Jonathan and grandson Kinchen were citizens of
Shenandoah Valley at or near Winchester, VA., and came to North Carolina
about the year 1800 and settled near Tuckaseege Ford of the Catawba River in
Lincoln Country where William died."
I'm just getting started on this line, and have not proved everything out.
What I submitted was an outline to the list was proved to Jonathon, but
not beyond. This is not my line either, I am doing it for a dear friend.
She has written for a number of wills/or probates, but to date we have not
received them, including William's war records. We only have index records.
Thank you,
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Carpenter" <rcarpenter2(a)charter.net>
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.