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Are you saying that William1 and William2 might be brothers? Anita
-- "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp> wrote:
"and we may assume that William2 (b. ca. 1605), by virtue of
being named with William1 in Shalbourne Westcourt tenant records, was his
father's eldest son and heir."
I think this is mistaken. The youngest was usually named in manor records,
with the intention to maintain family claims to the land for the longest
period of time. Clearly William (2) was the youngest.
BC
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_____________________________________________________________
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for postage rembursement, I don't use that program anymore.
John Proctor Stilwell, KS
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In a message dated 10/21/2007 5:52:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
GeneZub(a)aol.com writes:
my sone in lawe [stepson]
Gene,
How can you tell when it means "step" son of a spouse, and when it means
husband of your daughter? Dates? I seem to remember a Jayne in Orange Co. NY
who named two sons in law, John Carpenter and John Wood (my records are in
storage so can't check for sure, but think early 1700s).
Phoebe
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In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
GeneZub(a)aol.com writes:
HANNAH5 CARPENTER was born at Musketa Cove (then part of Oyster Bay, now
the
city of Glen Cove), Queens (that part now Nassau) Co., N.Y., say 1722,
daughter of Thomas4 and Hannah (______ [not Alsop]) Carpenter; she died at
Rye,
Westchester Co., N.Y., or Greenwich, Fairfield Co., Conn., probably in the
1740s (only one known child), certainly before 29 August 1766 (date of
father's
will, in which she is not named). She married at Rye, 17 9th month
[November]
1742, SOLOMON HAVILAND, who was born at Rye, say 1720, son of Benjamin and
Charity (Farrington??? [not documented]) Haviland; he died at Greenwich not
long before 22 June 1772 (letters of admin.), leaving a widow Esther.
Gene, If this is a different Thomas than the one who married Hannah Alsop,
can you tell me which Thomas it was? (Some say it is the same as Thomas with
wife Hannah Alsop.)
thank you'
Marilyn (Heavilin) Curent
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In a message dated 10/3/2007 5:50:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
GeneZub(a)aol.com writes:
HANNAH5 CARPENTER was born at Musketa Cove (then part of Oyster Bay, now
the
city of Glen Cove), Queens (that part now Nassau) Co., N.Y., say 1722,
daughter of Thomas4 and Hannah (______ [not Alsop]) Carpenter; she died at
Rye,
Westchester Co., N.Y., or Greenwich, Fairfield Co., Conn., probably in the
1740s (only one known child), certainly before 29 August 1766 (date of
father's
will, in which she is not named). She married at Rye, 17 9th month
[November]
1742, SOLOMON HAVILAND, who was born at Rye, say 1720, son of Benjamin and
Charity (Farrington??? [not documented]) Haviland; he died at Greenwich not
long before 22 June 1772 (letters of admin.), leaving a widow Esther.
Sources: Daniel Hoogland Carpenter, _History and Genealogy of the Carpenter
Family in America, from the Settlement at Providence, R.I., 1637–1901_
(Jamaica, N.Y., 1901), 67n–68n, citing Oyster Bay Records, B:103–6, 1:469,
470,
476; William S. Pelletreau, ed., _Early Wills of Westchester County, New
York,
from 1664 to 1784_ (New York, 1898), 48, 219–20; Pelletreau, _Abstracts of
Wills on File in the Surrogate's Office, City of New York_, 17 vols. (New
York,
1893–1913), 2:11; New York Wills and Administrations, 15:127–28; Douglas
Leffingwell, _Alsop Genealogy_ (n.p., 1928), 2–4; Purchase (Rye) Monthly
Meeting
Records (1700–1800), 1, 4 [FHL film #17,293, item 1]; Westchester Co.
Deeds,
F:328, G:46–47; Greenwich Deeds, 6:359, 10:257; Stamford (Conn.) District
Probate, 3:499, 4:12, 6:388–89; Josephine C. Frost, _The Haviland
Genealogy_
(N.Y., 1914), 50–51, 70–71, 110 (caveat).
Gene Z.
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In a previous posting this date, I supposed that Joanna (Mrs. Richard)
Carpenter had been "a close relative (daughter or sister?) of Philip Heath's." It
since occurred to me that since Heath had died before "the Feaste of St.
Michaell" [29 September] 1621 (date of his estate inventory), and the marriage
of Richard Carpenter and Joanna Heath took place on 23 April 1622, she might
have been Heath's widow.
This is confirmed by the will of Richard Carpenter of Little Bedwyn,
blacksmith, dated 17 June 1681 and proved 14 January 1683[/4] (P5/1683/15, online at
_http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/heritage/getwill.php?id=102472_
(http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/heritage/getwill.php?id=102472) , images 8, 9). It
names "my sone in lawe [stepson] Phillip heathe my first wifes sonn"; "my sister
in law Robert Carpenters wife of Swindon"; "my kinse woman Elezabeth
Phillips"; and wife Dorothy (executrix).
Having in 1622 married a widow with at least one child, Richard is not
likely to have been born later than about 1602. And considering his year of death
(ca. 1683), it's unlikely that he was born much before 1600. This would
seem to eliminate the possibility that he was either a brother or son of
William1 Carpenter, then of Shalbourne. William1 was born about 1575 (aged 40 in
1614; 62 in 1638), and we may assume that William2 (b. ca. 1605), by virtue of
being named with William1 in Shalbourne Westcourt tenant records, was his
father's eldest son and heir. Note, however, that a Phillippe Hethe married at
Calne, Wiltshire (about 20 miles west of Little Bedwyn), on 12 October 1612,
Joanne Vauhen [probably Vaughen/Vaughan/Vaughn] (IGI extraction from Calne
parish register). If--I repeat, _if_--this was Richard's eventual wife, then
despite his year of death, his birth year might have been early enough to
preserve the _possibility_ that Richard was William1's brother.
In any case, it wouldn't hurt to check parish records for Swindon and
vicinity.
Gene Z.
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Does anyone have a hard copy of the Family Tree Mker Manual prefer current
2005 or up
I am passing my genealogy to my nephew to carry our tree forward to the Next
generation of Carpenters
John L. Carpenter
PO Box 912
Walpole,N.H. 03608-0912
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Gene, thank you once again. Excellent work. So, as a generalization we
might infer that we have a Richard Carpenter in Little Bedwyn with a
daughter born approximately early 16oos. I am assuming she was not quite
legal age, but close. This would heighten suspicions that Richard was a
brother of William(1). With no other records (as of yet) of a parent
family in the area, we might also assume Richard had arrived from
elsewhere than the immediate area, as did William (1).
BC
Apologies to all:
Although my analysis of Philip Heath's probate documents had a sound basis
(the meaning of "durante minori aetate"; the adult status of married females,
regardless of age, under English common law; etc.), I'm embarrassed to say
that my conclusion as to the identity of Joanna Carpenter was nevertheless
wrong.
In checking notes I made during a 2001 search of the fragmentary, sometimes
illegible parish records of Little Bedwyn (Bishops' Transcripts), I find that
the single, relevant record I was able to discern is that of the marriage,
on 23 April 1622, of Richard Carpenter and Jone/Jane Heath. She is almost
certainly the Joanna Carpenter who was granted administration on the estate of
Philip Heath a couple of months later, and he is undoubtedly the Richard
Carpenter who filed an administrative bond on her behalf.
It is reasonable to suppose that Joanna (Heath) Carpenter was a close
relative (daughter or sister?) of Philip Heath's. But since we don't know her age
or that of Richard Carpenter, and given the commonness of the Carpenter name,
no assumptions are appropriate at present concerning the nature--or
existence--of a family connection between him and the Carpenters of Shalbourne. It
is a _possibility_ and nothing more.
Gene Z.
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Thanks to Gene for his clarifications on “durante minori
aetate” and “smith.” A question I have is why the deceased would appoint
an underage female to the legal responsibility of his estate, although I
realize the practice took place. Wouldn’t Joanna have more likely been the
sister of the deceased, and wife of Richard Carpenter, married although
legally underage?
The business of stated professions in 17th century England is problematic.
The following quote from Cambell’s “The English Yeoman” touches on this
and gives a well known example of a multi-profession yeoman:
“And John Shakespeare, the poet’s father, is in some documents styled
yeoman and elsewhere described as glover, butcher, and whittawer (p. 160).
A Carpenter could have easily been a carpenter, a smith as well as in the
cloth business at the same time.
BC.
In a message dated 10/20/2007 3:03:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
carpenter-request(a)rootsweb.com writes:
If this week was Veteran's Day what is November 11th?
the effects of aging brain inspired by a news article
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Bruce wrote:
<< Wouldn't Joanna have more likely been the sister of the deceased, and
wife of Richard Carpenter, married although legally underage? >>
Under English common law, when an underage female married, she became an
adult for legal purposes. If Joanna had been married, the phrase "durante
minori aetate" would be inappropriate. And if she'd been Richard's wife, we would
probably find her name along with his in the first paragraph of the
administrative bond and as a cosignatory.
Gene Z.
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At 10:24 PM 10/14/07 EDT, you wrote:
>The definition of a serviceman/Veteran is a man or woman who has signed a
>blank check to their country for any amount up to and including their
lives.
>THANK YOU TO ALL THE SERVICE PEOPLE ACTIVE AND VETERANS.
>
>Happy Veterans Day To all that gave some and some who gave it all
>
>
>John L. Carpenter MSG US Army,Ret.
>PO Box 912
>Walpole,N.H. 03608-0912
If this week was Veteran's Day what is November 11th?
Tim Stowell
Bruce wrote:
<< Documents for a 1625 Anthony Early of Little Bedwyn show a debt notation
for Richard Carpenter. Richard must have been something of a businessman in
the town and perhaps area. Both image 3 and 4 show the notation. >>
The item in question identifies Richard Carpenter as "a smithe." Chances
are he's the same man as Richard Carpenter, blacksmith, who was the probable
father of Joanna Carpenter, administratrix on the estate of Philip Heath (see
separate posting, "Joanna and Richard Carpenter," this date).
<< Anthony Early also seems to be a tailor, a point to be kept in mind.
Points perhaps better kept in mind are that (1) William2 Carpenter of
Rehoboth and his father, William1, were house carpenters--not sheepmen, weavers,
clothiers, or the like--and (2) the occupation of Richard Carpenter of
Amesbury, father of William1 of Providence (whose estate inventory also contains many
house carpenter's tools), is unknown. At present, the best evidence as to
this Richard's origin points to the parish of Newton Toney (adjacent to
Amesbury).
<< If anyone san find that reference figure out the preceeding word,?please
let me know. >>
The word preceding what? Image number?
Gene Z.
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In reference to Bruce's postings about documents relating to the estate of
Philip Heath of Little Bedwyn and mentioning administratrix Joanna Carpenter
and also a Richard Carpenter:
On 28 June 1622, Joanna Carpenter was granted letters of administration
"durante minori aetate" on the estate of Philip Heath (P5/10Reg/133A
[misidentified as an administrative bond]). She was not then of legal age and thus was
unable to perform her administrative duties at that time. Such an appointment
remains valid until the administrator reaches adulthood and discharges the
responsibilities with which he/she has been entrusted.
On the same date, Richard Carpenter, blacksmith, filed a bond relating to
the administration of Philip Heath's estate by Joanna Carpenter (P5/1622/38,
image 1). He was almost certainly her father.
Gene Z.
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This is from a friend over on another family site. I know a few people have
received an e-mail saying unsubscribe from the site.
DELETE IT~~~!!!!
Here you go, John..from my site..just copied.
ATTN: EVERYONE!!!
- Oct 16, 2007 View | Viewers
Categories: announcements/info (delete in about 3 months), Current Events
(will be deleted in about 3 month) I am passing this on to our members.
It was on the Admin site, and it is something you need to know.
Several people have received this email from Unsubscribe.myfamily.com. There
has been nothing in the body. DO NOT EVEN OPEN IT if you get it. There have
been some reports of people getting it, and then finding themselves off the
site they were on. There is a possibility they deleted themselves. If you
receive it, please delete it. It is not from MyFamily.
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Anthony Early also seems to be a tailor, a point to be kept in mind. If
anyone san find that reference figure out the preceeding word, please let
me know.
BC
Documents for a 1625 Anthony Early of Little Bedwyn show a debt notation
for Richard Carpenter. Richard must have been something of a businessman
in the town and perhaps area. Both image 3 and 4 show the notation.
Bruce Carpenter
There is English in the Administration Bond document. Joanna is mentioned
as the "administratorix" for Heath. Richard is referred to as "Richard
Carpenter de Bedwin". Perhaps Joanna was Richard's wife?
One thought comes to mind here with this document. The entire area between
and including the Bedwyns to Marlborough and including much of the land of
Amesbury was under the control of one estate i.e. The Savernak. The lords
of manor i.e. the Seymour family lived half the time in Amesbury and half
the time in Great Bedwyn. Hmnn. Amesbury Richard?
Bruce Carpenter
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.