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Thank you Gene, for your tremendous research, attention to detail and civil
discourse in advancing our knowledge of Carpenter ancestry. Your dedicated
scholarship is most appreciated and provides much new information.
Hats off to both Gene and Sharyn saying it so well for all of us.
Phoebe
Thank you Gene, for your tremendous research, attention to detail and civil
discourse in advancing our knowledge of Carpenter ancestry. Your dedicated
scholarship is most appreciated and provides much new information.
Having made a significant error in my own Carpenter genealogy, I found some
comfort in starting anew with my NEHGS Register. Carpenter researchers
will benefit for years to come from your careful look at these mistaken
identities and you are to be commended----surely it was yeoman's work.
Sharyn Carpenter Herian
-----Original Message-----
From: GeneZub(a)aol.com [mailto:GeneZub@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 2:44 PM
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Re: James.
As I recall, this entire, tortuous, pedantic debate evolved from my having
said that I favor referring to William Carpenter (b. ca. 1605; formerly of
Shalbourne, England) not as Goodman William Carpenter (in that
goodmen/yeomen
were a dime a dozen) but as William2 of Rehoboth. It's time to let it go.
Gene Z.
<< This wasn't a case of indenture, but rather a business project. The whole
affair is referred to as a "partnership". James was under the same contract
as the merchant Woodward. >>
Semantic maneuvers don't change the facts: The partnership was between Ralph
Woodward, on the one hand, and William Bladen and John Fisher, on the other.
The agreement called for Woodward to purchase land in New England and
develop it with the assistance of the two servants (of whom Redway was one)
supplied by Woodward's Dublin partners. Woodward, his wife, daughter "& servants
that he carryeth over with him shall Imploy theire endeavors & labors, for the
terme of three yeares after theire Arrivall." An indenture is simply a
contract. Redway's inclusion in it was as a servant, which status he already
occupied; the contract put an explicit limit on the term of his remaining
service.
<< It is inconceivable James Redway was found on a Dublin street corner and
traded a ticket for his manual labor. >>
Of course it is. Setting up a straw man and knocking him down doesn't
advance the debate.
<< Surely he was at least the younger son of a respectable family . . . >>
This is pure, tendentious speculation.
As I recall, this entire, tortuous, pedantic debate evolved from my having
said that I favor referring to William Carpenter (b. ca. 1605; formerly of
Shalbourne, England) not as Goodman William Carpenter (in that goodmen/yeomen
were a dime a dozen) but as William2 of Rehoboth. It's time to let it go.
Gene Z.
"An indenture is simply a
contract. Redway's inclusion in it was as a servant, which status he
already
occupied; the contract put an explicit limit on the term of his remaining
service."
Yes but there were indentures and indentures. We do not have a copy of his
indenture, thus how can we say his contract was strictly a boat ticket-labor
arrangement? Was Redway just a servant laborer or was he trained in
business as an apprentice and were his tasks in Massachusetts were along
business lines? Again Gene has made a class judgement for Redway without
being really sure. Was Redway a servant or an apprentice?
You can have the last word Gene, I am off to Florida.
BC
The following two gems are from Rehoboth records:
1. "Nov. 25, 1663. Voted, that Alexander, the Irishman, a brick-maker,should
be freely approved among us, for to make brick, and should have free liberty
to make use of the clay and wood on the common for that purpose."
2. "May 22, 1665. Sam the Indian that keeps the cows, was admitted to the
rights of citizenship within the colony."
Tilton in his History of Rehboth Massachusetts cites a source that claims
Sam was the only Indian admitted to the town. I would assume the same for
Alexander and that any Irish were unwelcome.
BC
A. T. Powell writes:
<< I am wondering Why you are So Huffed at the refrence to Irsh Waif Or Any
other Waif. . . . Faith & begory Gene ye Said ye Self that tha Lad was
indentured. >>
<< I do not understand why you brought yor self into a intended helping hand
to GENE Z. & hopefuly let him Know there wasn't any thing wrong with the use
of the word Waif. >>
An indentured servant is not assumed to be homeless (and typically wasn't
homeless prior to his/her term of servitude) and thus is by definition not a
waif. It is for this reason, a simple matter of accuracy, that I neither did
nor would characterize James Redway as a waif. And knowing that his family
(and perhaps he himself, originally) resided in Devon, England, I neither did
nor would depict Redway as Irish; again, it's a simple matter of accuracy.
It should be clear from a careful reading of my posting and the one to which
it replies that it was not I who was insulted by the (never-made) Irish-waif
characterization. I do tend to resist, however, when my statements are
misrepresented or (as now) my attitude is mischaracterized.
Gene Z.
The following is an 1650 indenture for an apprentice. Notice the language,
"drink and lodginge fitting as servants ought to have."
[*47] October 15. 1650.
Know all men that I Samuell Terry with the consent of my present master
William Pynchon of Springfeild gentleman have put my self an apprentense to
Benjamin Cooly of Springfeild weaver his heires and assignes to serve him or
them in any kind of Lawfull Imployment that the said Benjamin Cooly shall
command me for and during the space of three yeeres 6 monthes and some odd
dayes from the Tyme of the date hereof: In consideration whereof I the said
Benjamin Cooly doe bynd myself my heires and executors to pay unto the said
William his heirs or assignes the some of nine pounds viz fifty shillings at
the 10 day of Aprill next 1651. and fifty shillings more at the 10 day of
Aprill 1652 and fifty shillings more at the to day of Aprill 1653 and Thirty
shillings the 10 of Aprill 1654 at the house of the said Mr. Pynchon in good
and merchantable wheat at foure shillings per bushell or in sound
merchantable Pease at three shillings per bushell moreover I the said
Benjamin Cooly doe bynd myselfe my heires and assignes to pay unto the said
Samuell Terry now assigned and set over unto me as abovesaid, fifty
shillings in merchantable wheat and pease at the prise abovesaid for his
first yeeres service and fifty shillings for the 2d yeere and fifty
shillings for the 3d yere and for the last halfe yeere and some odd days
thirty and five shillings and also in the said space to find the said
Samuell Terry meate drink and lodginge fitting as servants ought to have:
and also I doe hereby bynd myselfe to instruct him and teach him the trade
of linnin weaving accordinge to the use of it in this [*48] Towne of
Springfeild provided he will be willinge and carefull to learne it:
This Nine Pounds due for Samuell Terrys tyme was sattisfied Mr. Pynchon
according to ingagement: in specie: Per me JOHN PYNCHON [Marginal notation.]
And the said William Pynchon doth promise to the said Samuell Terry for his
better incoragement to remitt his last yeeres service which he is bound by
his Indenture made in England to serve him more than is expressed in this
present agreement with Benjamin Cooly, and doth also freely give him all the
apparell that he hath at present both wollen and linnin and doth also
promise to give him Twenty shillings more in such necessaries for apparell
as he shall call for in his first yeares service with Benjamin Cooly: and
the said Samuell doth bynd himself to be dilligent in service to the said
Benjamin and not doing him any damage accordinge to his Covenantes expressed
in his Indenture to the said Mr. Pynchon which said Indenture the said Mr.
Pynchon cloth assigne set over and deliver into the hands of the said
Benjamin Cooly for the use and behoof of himself or of any of the said
persons mentioned in this Contract untill the said Samuell shall have
performed the said service Of 3. year 6 monthes and odd dayes from the date
hereof: and for the sure Rattifienge of the said Agreement the said Mr.
Pynchon hath Entered this agreement in his book of publik Records and also
all the foresaid persons have hereunto set their hands this present 15 day
of October
1650.
witnesse SAMUELL TERRY
RICHARD MAUND JOHN BENHAM
The Mark of Benjamin X Cooly
WILLIAM PYNCHON
[*49] Memorandum that it is agreed by the parties expressed in the said
Indenture that in case the said Samuell Terry dye in the tyme of his first
yeeres service with the said Benjamin then the said Benjamin is to pay only
5 pounds to Mr. Pynchon at the yeares end: and that if he dye after the
first yeere and before he hath served 3 yeeres then he is to pay half of
that which remaines to Mr. Pynchon.
Also it is mutually agreed that whereas the said payments is expressed to be
made in sound merchantable wheat or pease: yet if payment be made in any
other thinge that the said Mr. Pynchon or Samuell Terry shall accept it
shall be accounted a fulfillinge of their Covenant.
Memorandum that the 20s above promised to Samuell Terry is paid him this 25
October 1650 in a new hat and band 0. 10 .0
in a moseskin 0. 10 .0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
_Click here: American Prisoners of the Revolution Names of 8000 Men Aboard
the Old Jersey Prison ship_ (http://www.usmm.net/revdead.html#anchor253262)
John Carpenter
Miles Carpenter
Richards Carpenter
Check this great website!
Bowen in his Early Rehoboth study "The Redway Family" tells that it was not
only Redway that was under contract for three years after arrival in
Massachusetts, but also merchant Ralph Woodward, his wife and daughter!!!!
The Woodwards and Redway were a group of people under a business contract.
The Woodward and Redway brought a sizable sum of money of Bladens to be
invested as well. This wasn't a case of indenture, but rather a business
project. The whole affair is referred to as a "partnership". James was under
the same contract as the merchant Woodward. It is inconceivable James Redway
was found on a Dublin street corner and traded a ticket for his manual
labor. Surely he was at least the younger son of a respectable family, in
the employ of a gentleman businessman
(granted arms in 1663, see Burke) and no doubt under the watchful eye of the
Woodwards. His daughter must have been a good catch for Samuel Carpenter.
Yeoman stock, Yeoman stock!!!!
BC
I do not understand why you brought yor self into a intended helping hand
to GENE Z. & hopefuly let him Know there wasn't any thing wrong with the use of
the word Waif. Aufwidersehn
A T
Hello Carpenters:
Even allowing for inaccuracies, I'd like to take a look at this
tree. But when I click on the link, it takes NOT to a tree but to a
Rootsweb search page. And when I enter "carpenter" in the surname search
form, it just reloads to the same search page. I don't find any tree at
all. What am I missing here?
Robin
>About 5 years ago - maybe March 2000, someone
>posted a URL relating to a family tree for the Carpenters of Rehoboth.
>
>I finally found it after rambling through 5 years of email and place
> it here again as I've found it helpful in my research.
>
>http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=ryand
>
>Tim Stowell
About 5 years ago - maybe March 2000, someone
posted a URL relating to a family tree for the Carpenters of Rehoboth.
I finally found it after rambling through 5 years of email and place
it here again as I've found it helpful in my research.
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=ryand
Tim Stowell
Attenn: GeneZ,
I am wondering Why you are So Huffed at the refrence to Irsh Waif Or Any
other Waif.
Websters Verision of Waif, Me waife ownerless property <onfr.
waife, of Scand. orig,> 1 a. A homeless Person, esp an orphaned or forsaken
Child. B. an Abandoned young Animal: STRAY. 2 Somthing found and unclaimed,
as an object cast up
by the sea,
Faith & begory Gene ye Said ye Self that tha Lad was indentured. That is
Self explanatoty. Tha Waif did not have enough Money to pay em-self across the
water, so the Captian Sold Him for the Voage Fare, as was My 7th Grt Grand Dady
Powell & many other People who did not have enough money for Travel Fare. A
T & Leona <atpowelljr(a)aol.com>
Bruce writes:
<< To imply that my ancestor James Redway was an Irish waif is unfair and
probably not
historically accurate. >>
I have no idea what prompted this, but I neither said nor implied any such
thing. I said that Redway (who is my ancestor, also) arrived in Massachusetts
as an indentured servant ("for the terme of three yeares") but nevertheless
rose to the status of yeoman. This was in partial demonstration of the fact
that the New England class structure was never as rigid as that of Old
England.
Although Redway's immediate origin was Dublin, it is certain he was *not*
Irish: the obituary of editor and publisher George7 Redway (1835-1923)
indicates that his father’s family was from Devonshire, England (_Medina [Ohio]
Gazette_, 7 Dec. 1923); a survey of IGI entries for England indicates that those
bearing his surname and its variants (Reddaway, Radway, Ridway, etc.) were
concentrated in that county. In any case, the depiction (real or imagined) of a
person as an Irish waif would only seem "unfair" to someone with a low
opinion of the Irish and/or of waifs.
It seems to me that any further discussion of Redway family history on the
Carpenter mailing list would be inappropriate.
Gene Z.
There is a problem in early records with "servant" and "apprentice". The two
can be interchangeable. James Redway although certainly referred to as
"servant" was probably an apprentice. Bowen notes that, "He was probably
released from his apprenticeship three years later, in 1640, and married in
1641" (Early Rehoboth, vol. 1, p. 126). The following is from an
ancestry.com site that discusses the problem.
"Man and Master
"Mr. Steephen Hopkins is committed to ward for his contempt to the Court,
and shall so remayne comitted until hee shall either receive his servant
Dorothy Temple, or els provide for her elsewhere at his owne charge during
the terme shee hath yet to serve him."
(Stratton) One of the least known aspects of the Colony is the distinction
made between classes. There were "freemen" and there were "free men" who
were not "freemen," but the most pronounced difference was between free men
and "unfree men;" that is, servants, apprentices, and slaves. Slavery was
not introduced until the later period, but servants and apprentices were
present from the beginning. Apparently there was little difference between a
servant and an apprentice, and at times the records seem to treat them
interchangeably, and yet at other times there was a distinction. It might
not be inaccurate to say that all apprentices were servants, but not all
servants were apprentices. The distinction seemed to be that apprentices
tended to be young and were expected to be taught a trade or given some form
of education."
A hint that James Redway was an apprentice was that he served a merchant. A
merchant would have sought a boy who had some education. To imply that my
ancestor James Redway was an Irish waif is unfair and probably not
historically accurate.
I see where James Redway refers to himself as "yeoman" in his 1684 proved
will. Well enough. However, apprentices were traditionally drawn from
yeomans' sons. Not to be forgotten.
<< How did Mr. Redaway become a yeoman? >>
He, like most of his neighbors, was a Rehoboth proprietor. As such he
received periodic grants of land from the town and then made the most of them.
<< It would be interesting to do a kind of class analysis of the the eldest
son's wife if that is possible. Samuel who married a Redaway was last in the
pecking order. >>
Samuel was the next-to-youngest of William2's sons; Abiah was the youngest.
(For a discussion of Samuel's approximate date of birth [say 1638] and
proper place in the birth order, see TAG 70:193-204, at 195-98, to which add the
following: Samuel Carpenter was sworn as a grand juryman at Plymouth on 4 June
1661, indicating that he had been born no later than 1640 [see Plymouth
Colony Records, 3:215].)
That it was the two youngest of William2's sons who married Redways had to
do with their place in the birth order only in that they were much closer in
age to James1 Redway's daughters than were their older brothers. Eldest
daughter Sarah Redway (m. Samuel Carpenter) was born about 1642; Abiah Carpenter's
wife, Mary Redway, was the next eldest, born in 1646. Neither they nor
their younger sisters were of age when the elder three Carpenter brothers
married. John4 Carpenter, who married Rebecca Redway (youngest of the sisters), was
the eldest of William3 Carpenter's thirteen children. There's nothing in
these facts to suggest a connection between birth order and class endogamy.
Gene Z.
I have a copy of Daniel CARPENTER's Revolutionary War pension papers
via Heritage Quest. In it he names three sons who are still dependent
upon him - Harvey, Asa and Orson. Daniel joined the Continental Army in
Coventry , CT in 1775. In the application for the pension dated April
13, 1818, he says he is 65 and his wife is 56, which makes his birth
year 1755 and his wife's 1764. He applied for his pension from Vienna,
Oneida co. N.Y. In the 1880 census Orson says he was born in Ct in
1807 and that both of his parents were born in Ct, also. I have found a
Ct. vital record of Daniel CARPENTER born to Daniel CARPENTER and
Elizabeth on May 9, 1755 in Coventry, Ct. How would I know if this is
my Daniel? So far I've had no luck finding birth records for Harvey,
Asa or Orson. Any suggestions of where I go from here?
Jessie Deith
<< At Rehoboth the yeomanry were the Browns, Paines and Carpenters etc. >>
John Brown, who was a Plymouth Colony Assistant within less than a year of
his arrival in New England, is recorded as "Mr." as early as October 1637 and
consistently thereafter. Among other early Rehoboth men who were
consistently recorded as "Mr." were Joseph Peck, Henry Smith, Samuel Newman (pastor),
and Alexander Winchester.
<< the same "strict pecking order" society that existed in England came
right off the boat with the luggage in 1600s Massachusetts. >>
As with the line separating husbandman and yeoman (see previous posting),
the line between yeoman and gentleman was more penetrable in New England than
in Old England. In a 1658 list of Rehoboth freemen, for example, former
goodmen/yeomen Stephen Paine and William Carpenter are listed as "Mr." (Carpenter
died soon thereafter, but Paine is found as "Mr." in other, subsequent
records.) This almost certainly had to do earned respect and advancing age, not
with English family background. Another relevant example: two sons and a
grandson of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth married daughters of James1 Redway,
who had come to Massachusetts as an indentured servant. Redway became a
prosperous yeoman, and his humble beginnings were not an obstacle (as they would
have been in England) to his daughters' marriages to Carpenter men.
The existence of a class structure in America--then and now--is undeniable,
but it was never as rigid as that in England. From the beginning, the
wide-open structure of economic opportunity and the need for close cooperation made
that impossible.
Gene Z.
"and the need for close cooperation made
that impossible"
The close cooperation in Rehoboth was also English in inspiration. The
stewardship of land in England always had a communal aspect i.e. after crops
were harvested everyone availed themselves of the "commons" which was the
open land that all parishes had. Everyone took turns tending to the sheep
and cattle on the commons and everyone shared the responsibility of paths
and field divisions. They all sat together on the manor court etc. I have
the book in Japan, but cannot remember the title now.
How did Mr. Redaway become a yeoman? My point was that there was really no
yeomen class in Massachusetts, but rather people acted in various ways due
to the class society they left behind.
It would be interesting to do a kind of class analysis of the the eldest
son's wife if that is possible. Samuel who married a Redaway was last in the
pecking order.
BC
At 09:14 PM 3/6/05 +0900, Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
>Bowen in his first volume of Early Rehoboth relates, "The town of Swansea
>was founded on the basis of a class division of inhabitants that existed
>nowhere else in New England." (up. 26)
>
>The founders of Swansea, an area in Rehoboth, were Thomas Willet, Stephen
>Paine, John Brown, John Allen and John Butterworth.
I often wondered where Mrs. Butterworth came from and now I know! :)
Tim Stowell
Chattanooga
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.