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Bruce E.,
"It still seems DeMelun is eliminated. Carpenter and DeMelun do not match."
Both names have three vowels and three parts to each name. That's similar,
is it not?
I am pretty sure if we go back far enough, we can find a match some where.
Besides, aren't we all related in one way or the other?
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <bcarpenter72(a)alumni.wesleyan.edu>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:07 PM
Subject: bad match
> "Note that the Franks were a Germanic tribe and, as such, came
> "originally"
> from eastern Europe, not from the Atlantic fringe. Therefore, it is a
> grave error to presume that de Melun carried the R1b haplogroup."
>
> I was under the impression that the R1a group was well represented in
> modern Germany for the presumed reason of Slavic contacts and that the R1a
> group was outside the classic Germanic tribal group.
>
> That the Franks were of the Germanic group was never in doubt by me. This
> was precisely my point, that DeMelun would have probably displayed classic
> Germanic-Frankish R1b. He wouldn't have been a descendant of the other
> group, although this can only be suggested by his Frankish-aristocratic
> lineage.
>
> It still seems DeMelun is eliminated. Carpenter and DeMelun do not match.
> BC
>
> ______________________________
"Note that the Franks were a Germanic tribe and, as such, came "originally"
from eastern Europe, not from the Atlantic fringe. Therefore, it is a
grave error to presume that de Melun carried the R1b haplogroup."
I was under the impression that the R1a group was well represented in
modern Germany for the presumed reason of Slavic contacts and that the R1a
group was outside the classic Germanic tribal group.
That the Franks were of the Germanic group was never in doubt by me. This
was precisely my point, that DeMelun would have probably displayed classic
Germanic-Frankish R1b. He wouldn't have been a descendant of the other
group, although this can only be suggested by his Frankish-aristocratic
lineage.
It still seems DeMelun is eliminated. Carpenter and DeMelun do not match.
BC
Bruce wrote:
> I was under the impression that the R1a group was well represented in
> modern Germany for the presumed reason of Slavic contacts and that the R1a
> group was outside the classic Germanic tribal group.
Not at all. The point you've got to understand is that the various
language families like Celtic, Slavic, and Germanic split only a few
thousand years ago, and the haplogroups go back much farther than
that. These tribes were undoubtedly all mixtures from before the
beginning of the distinctions in language. It is a mistake to say
this or that Carpenter must be of one particular ethnicity because
of a result as ancient as a haplogroup.
> That the Franks were of the Germanic group was never in doubt by me. This
> was precisely my point, that DeMelun would have probably displayed classic
> Germanic-Frankish R1b.
Sorry, but you've got it backwards. R1b is not classically Germanic
at all. Certainly there would be at least a small admixture of R1b in
any European group, but the geographic focus of R1b is the Atlantic
fringe of Europe, where the Germanic tribes were very recent arrivals,
and the areas of highest concentration of R1b are those where Germanic
tribes never penetrated at all.
> It still seems DeMelun is eliminated. Carpenter and DeMelun do not match.
You imply that documented male-line descendants of de Melun have in
fact been tested for their DNA, but I have not heard of it. Until and
unless such tests are performed, you cannot make such a statement.
For that matter, we have 12 distinctive groups in the Carpenter
project, and eight of them are apparently Carpenters of English
origins. These include some additional R1a as well as R1b and I
(i.e., all three of the most common haplogroups in northwestern
Europe). We also have more than 30 individuals who have not yet found
a match but will surely do so eventually, and each one is thus another
group in the making.
One last word. The DNA project offers a unique opportunity to
validate the results of conventional genealogy. Those who actually
carry the Carpenter surname (and are male) can compare their DNA
directly against the many Carpenters already in the project and
discover which group they belong to genetically. If it's the group
they expected, that's definitely a boost for peace of mind. If it's a
different group, then they can finally get started on researching
their true kin.
John Chandler
Is it possible to get a DNA done of a Melun... to see if we are related???
Tell me more about this herdsman... I think I may like to do a sculpture of him! ^_^
Cricket
-----Original message-----
From: Carpenters pcarpenter(a)iprimus.com.au
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:55:39 +0000
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] the herdsman is OK
> "Bruce E. Carpenter" wrote:
>
> > "The same could be
> > said that not all French were R1b or of Frankish origin."
> >
> > DeMelun was not just "French." He was of the Frankish royal house. His
> > genealogy and genes go right back to the beginnings of the Frankish
> > historical experience.
> >
> > "Until we have a paper trail and Y-DNA, we could be
> > decendants of WTC or the Capetian Kings or Ivan "Joesmoe" the herdsman."
> >
> > Ivan "Joesmoe" the herdsman is a possibility, but the Capetian kings are
> > not, as well as their kinsman "the Carpenter."
> >
> > BC
>
>
"The same could be
said that not all French were R1b or of Frankish origin."
DeMelun was not just "French." He was of the Frankish royal house. His
genealogy and genes go right back to the beginnings of the Frankish
historical experience.
"Until we have a paper trail and Y-DNA, we could be
decendants of WTC or the Capetian Kings or Ivan "Joesmoe" the herdsman."
Ivan "Joesmoe" the herdsman is a possibility, but the Capetian kings are
not, as well as their kinsman "the Carpenter."
BC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carpenters" <pcarpenter(a)iprimus.com.au>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 3:49 AM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER]
I didn't realize the herdsman was confusing. It's just that most of our ancestors were poor, working stiffs, serfs, freedmen, small landholders and even slaves, depending on the historical era and the geographical sites. Most of the people of the world still fall into those categories, thought probably 2/3 of the slaves are now in Saudi Arabia, with China coming up next in number.
Actually we are almost certainly descended from Wm the Conqueror, theCapets,
Charlemagne AND Joe the herdsman as long as they all havve living
drscendants, just not in the straight male line.
> Bruce E. wrote, "The Carpenter DNA is just another painfully obvious
> indication of the impossibility of descent from "The Carpenter." Maybe
> yes and maybe no ... Until we have a paper trail and Y-DNA, we could be
> decendants of WTC or the Capetian Kings or Ivan "Joesmoe" the herdsman.
>
> Everything is possible until proven otherwise. And vice versa depending
> upon your outlook. :)
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
>
> ----- 1st Original Message Should Read -----
> From: "John R Carpenter 2" <johnrcarpenter(a)cox.net>
> To: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <bcarpenter72(a)alumni.wesleyan.edu>;
> <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 11:43 PM
> Subject: Carpenter Haplotype R1a1
>
>
>> Bruce E.,
>>
>> In an earlier e-mail message your referenced the following web page:
>> (
>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1a_two.htm )
>> In it it references R1a Haplogroups. When you compare Carpenter Group 3
>> DYS
>> markers, the closest matches on that web page are R1a Haplotype # 21 & #
>> 25.
>>
>> Number 21 differs from the Group 3 DYS marker at DYS 391. It has a value
>> of
>> 11 compared to Group 3 value of 10. Per that web page, "This haplotype is
>> widespread, but is clearly most common in Eastern Europe, particularly
>> Russia and Poland. ... but this geographical match pattern - at least in
>> theory - could support an ancestry among the Alans or the Sarmatians."
>>
>> Number 25 differs from Group 3 DYS marker at DYS 390. It has a value of
>> 26
>> compared to Group 3 value of 25. Per that web page, "The haplotype below
>> exhibits a large number of hits in parts of Saxony (e.g., Dresden,
>> Chemnitz,
>> Magdeburg, Leipzig and Hamburg), as well as some in Poland ... Eastern
>> Germanic tribes like the Suevi mixed with the Saxons. Roman auxiliaries
>> from
>> all over Germany also served in Britain, and may have included members of
>> such Baltic tribes as the Goths, the Heruls and the Rugians. It is
>> unrealistic to insist that all R1a in pre-Norman Britain would have been
>> of
>> exclusively Norwegian origin."
>>
>> More current testing and data shows that the Carpenter Group 3 is R1a1*
>> with
>> the Eastern European markers. The above suggest the same.
>>
>> John R. Carpenter
>> La Mesa, CA
>>
>
> xxxx
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <bcarpenter72(a)alumni.wesleyan.edu>
> To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:18 AM
> Subject: Number 26 ??
>
>
>> John must mean Number 25. The Eastern/Western distinction suggests a
>> historical development. The most significant element of the Western
>> Germanic tribes were the Salic Franks who settled in the Roman provinces
>> that eventually became France. Their descendants became the great
>> Frankish
>> ruling houses of the Merovingians and Carolingians. It would be a
>> reasonable assumption that many French today would display this DNA.
>> Surely William DeMelun was of the Western group and not the Eastern. He
>> would have been R1b and not R1a as a descendant of Frankish aristocrats
>> who lived right outside Paris. The Carpenter DNA is just another
>> painfully
>> obvious indication of the impossibility of descent from "The Carpenter."
>>
>> BC
>>
>> ______________________________
>
Bruce E.,
I stand corrected. It should be 25 instead of 26. See corrected message
below.
Bruce E. wrote, "Surely William DeMelun was ... R1b." The wording under
Number 25 stressed, "It is unrealistic to insist that all R1a in pre-Norman
Britain would have been of exclusively Norwegian origin." The same could be
said that not all French were R1b or of Frankish origin.
Bruce E. wrote, "The Carpenter DNA is just another painfully obvious
indication of the impossibility of descent from "The Carpenter." Maybe yes
and maybe no ... Until we have a paper trail and Y-DNA, we could be
decendants of WTC or the Capetian Kings or Ivan "Joesmoe" the herdsman.
Everything is possible until proven otherwise. And vice versa depending upon
your outlook. :)
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
----- 1st Original Message Should Read -----
From: "John R Carpenter 2" <johnrcarpenter(a)cox.net>
To: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <bcarpenter72(a)alumni.wesleyan.edu>;
<CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 11:43 PM
Subject: Carpenter Haplotype R1a1
> Bruce E.,
>
> In an earlier e-mail message your referenced the following web page:
> (
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1a_two.htm )
> In it it references R1a Haplogroups. When you compare Carpenter Group 3
> DYS
> markers, the closest matches on that web page are R1a Haplotype # 21 & #
> 25.
>
> Number 21 differs from the Group 3 DYS marker at DYS 391. It has a value
> of
> 11 compared to Group 3 value of 10. Per that web page, "This haplotype is
> widespread, but is clearly most common in Eastern Europe, particularly
> Russia and Poland. ... but this geographical match pattern - at least in
> theory - could support an ancestry among the Alans or the Sarmatians."
>
> Number 25 differs from Group 3 DYS marker at DYS 390. It has a value of 26
> compared to Group 3 value of 25. Per that web page, "The haplotype below
> exhibits a large number of hits in parts of Saxony (e.g., Dresden,
> Chemnitz,
> Magdeburg, Leipzig and Hamburg), as well as some in Poland ... Eastern
> Germanic tribes like the Suevi mixed with the Saxons. Roman auxiliaries
> from
> all over Germany also served in Britain, and may have included members of
> such Baltic tribes as the Goths, the Heruls and the Rugians. It is
> unrealistic to insist that all R1a in pre-Norman Britain would have been
> of
> exclusively Norwegian origin."
>
> More current testing and data shows that the Carpenter Group 3 is R1a1*
> with
> the Eastern European markers. The above suggest the same.
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
xxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <bcarpenter72(a)alumni.wesleyan.edu>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:18 AM
Subject: Number 26 ??
> John must mean Number 25. The Eastern/Western distinction suggests a
> historical development. The most significant element of the Western
> Germanic tribes were the Salic Franks who settled in the Roman provinces
> that eventually became France. Their descendants became the great Frankish
> ruling houses of the Merovingians and Carolingians. It would be a
> reasonable assumption that many French today would display this DNA.
> Surely William DeMelun was of the Western group and not the Eastern. He
> would have been R1b and not R1a as a descendant of Frankish aristocrats
> who lived right outside Paris. The Carpenter DNA is just another painfully
> obvious indication of the impossibility of descent from "The Carpenter."
>
> BC
>
> ______________________________
Thank you Jessie for your kind words!
They are two little blessings and I believe that they have taught me more than I could ever teach them! It is definitely a life change, and an adventure too.
I don't know how read up everyone is on Autism or related problems, but it could come from just about anything the "experts" say.. but some feel that it might be more susceptible in some gene pools when exposed to certain environmental factors.
Long shot... I just thought I would see!
Thank you again!
Cricket
-----Original message-----
From: Jessie Deith jessydeith(a)aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:20:57 +0000
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Re: CARPENTER-D Digest V05 #137
> To Cricket,
> First, I'm sorry to hear of your children's problems. Their pain is
> twice over in you. My sympathies.
> Second, I have one case - mild, of AD. However my Carpenter ancestry
> is so far back (six generations) that it could have sprung from many
> lines.
> Jessie Deith
>
To Cricket,
First, I'm sorry to hear of your children's problems. Their pain is
twice over in you. My sympathies.
Second, I have one case - mild, of AD. However my Carpenter ancestry
is so far back (six generations) that it could have sprung from many
lines.
Jessie Deith
Hello all,
I just had a curious thought and wanted to see if other Carpenters have experiences similiar, that just might link up as a family thing. Not sure...
Now I am not a gifted logical Carpenter researcher, so please understand that I do not mean to insult anyone by my interest.
Here we go:
I have two children that were both diagnosed with Autism. They have been genetically tested for future studies of causes and such...
I am curious to know if there are any links to any family members that may be similiar. How many Carpenter related children have Autism or related dysfunctions such as PDD, ADD, ADHD, OCD, and all those on the spectrum, and have they been genetically tested.
When my Son was genetically tested, the only thing unusually found was an "additional green signal in the pericentromeric region of one chromosome 14, suggesting a translocation involving the pericentromeric regions of chromosomes 14 and 15. This is most likely a polymorphism present in 10-15% of the general population."
If needed, I am able to contact the lab for more information on his DNA. I am just curious, and I know that this may be a long shot.
Thank you all!
Cricket
John must mean Number 25. The Eastern/Western distinction suggests a
historical development. The most significant element of the Western
Germanic tribes were the Salic Franks who settled in the Roman provinces
that eventually became France. Their descendants became the great Frankish
ruling houses of the Merovingians and Carolingians. It would be a
reasonable assumption that many French today would display this DNA.
Surely William DeMelun was of the Western group and not the Eastern. He
would have been R1b and not R1a as a descendant of Frankish aristocrats
who lived right outside Paris. The Carpenter DNA is just another painfully
obvious indication of the impossibility of descent from "The Carpenter."
BC
Bruce E.,
In an earlier e-mail message your referenced the following web page:
( http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1a_two.htm )
In it it references R1a Haplogroups. When you compare Carpenter Group 3 DYS
markers, the closest matches on that web page are R1a Haplotype # 21 & # 26.
Number 21 differs from the Group 3 DYS marker at DYS 391. It has a value of
11 compared to Group 3 value of 10. Per that web page, "This haplotype is
widespread, but is clearly most common in Eastern Europe, particularly
Russia and Poland. ... but this geographical match pattern - at least in
theory - could support an ancestry among the Alans or the Sarmatians."
Number 26 differs from Group 3 DYS marker at DYS 390. It has a value of 26
compared to Group 3 value of 25. Per that web page, "The haplotype below
exhibits a large number of hits in parts of Saxony (e.g., Dresden, Chemnitz,
Magdeburg, Leipzig and Hamburg), as well as some in Poland ... Eastern
Germanic tribes like the Suevi mixed with the Saxons. Roman auxiliaries from
all over Germany also served in Britain, and may have included members of
such Baltic tribes as the Goths, the Heruls and the Rugians. It is
unrealistic to insist that all R1a in pre-Norman Britain would have been of
exclusively Norwegian origin."
More current testing and data shows that the Carpenter Group 3 is R1a1* with
the Eastern European markers. The above suggest the same.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Bruce E.,
I am in Group 3 of the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project (
http://members.cox.net/johnrcarpenter/index.htm ) and I recently had a Y-SNP
test using the Marligen multiplex technique through Ethnoancestry.
The most downstream marker tested was the M17 confirming R1a1* Haplogroup.
This is based on the 2005 University of Arizona chart (Michael Hammer) -
http://www.familytreedna.com/haplotree.html - and / or the 2003 Y
Chromosome Consortium chart (Mark Jobling). The M87 marker was negative
ruling out R1a1c. The M157 marker was negative ruling out R1a1b. The M56
marker was negative ruling out R1a1a.
See the Haplogroup downstream markers the Y-Haplogroup map and markers on
the Haplogroup R downstream markers: (
http://www.dnaheritage.com/ysnptree.asp )
My Carpenter DYS markers have two specific markers that are common (up to
50% of males in the population) in Eastern Europe R1a1s that are rarely seen
in the Western European R1a1s. The Eastern markers fall in the R1a1*
Haplotype or clade common from Poland through the Ukraine regions of Eastern
Europe. Specifically these are DYS 19 = 16 & YCAII a,b = 19,23 which are
better represented in Eastern Europe than the R1a1 DYS 19 = 15 & YCAII a,b =
19,21 seen in Western Europe R1a1 groups.
What this all means is that Group 3 (& Group 2) or the Rehoboth Branch (&
Providence branch) is that these Carpenters had an ancestor born somewhere
in what we now call Eastern Europe.
Bruce E. wrote; "If merchants in the 13th century come to England with
Viking DNA, then there is good possibility they were Norman traders. It is
very unlikely they originated Poland or Turkey." With the data documented
above ... It is VERY likely that the Carpenter ancestry came from Eastern
Europe.
Keep in mind that Haplogroup classification is fairly useless for locating
the specific place of origin of your paternal line. While each Haplogroup
has general areas in which it is more common, there has been enough mixing
of people on the European continent to prevent using these classifications
to pinpoint any single place of origin. This is why documentation of a paper
trail in genealogy is so important in ancestor research. Haplogroups and
Haplotypes (Clades) can rule out one or more venues of research, but it does
not replace the CSI type work needed in Carpenter Research.
What we know for sure is that the paper trail has the ancestors of Groups 2
& 3 in England in the late 1500s. The paper trail does not go back farther.
Y-DNA Haplogroups can give us an idea where those groups are more common,
and make an assumption of of the general area. Thus "Eastern Europe" is the
general area of a Carpenter ancestor in what ever name he had.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <bcarpenter72(a)alumni.wesleyan.edu>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: Viking numbers
> The number of Vikings who actually settled in Normandy
>> was relatively small. Certainly not enough to replace the local
>> population. What's more, the "Norman" invaders of England were in
>> large part drawn from outside Normandy anyhow. Genetically, you'd
>> have to say it was a "French" invasion.
>>
>> John Chandler
>
>
> Certainly it is often said the Viking population was initially small.
> However there were hundreds of years after of Norman rule in the duchy
> and presumably Viking migration into the duchy. Which brings us back to my
> original point.We know of all the Norman landowner-aristocrats, but
> nothing of the probably many more Norman traders, many of whom went to
> England as well, early on and later. You keep focusing on Norman knights.
> Don't forget the crowd of other people, like the Chaucers for example.
>
> My original point is certainly based on several unproven assumptions, but
> nevertheless
> deserves to be kept in mind. If merchants in the 13th century come to
> England with Viking DNA, then there is good possibility they were Norman
> traders. It is very unlikely they originated Poland or Turkey. I keep
> hearing that English R1a is Viking-Norman from the obvious conclusion
> anyone from the other areas would have been a rarity. For Carpenters the
> problem remains when they came. It still seems to me R1a alone nudges Mr.
> DeMelun out.
> BC
>
> ______________________________
Hi, I am looking for the Father of Richard Carpenter Born, 1745 / 51, died 1835 in Fleming County Ky. He Married ?., Richard May Have been Buried in The Old Carpenters Cemetery, near Wallingford,It is said he had a large family.It is said he may have been from New York or It says his sons show some of them were born in Va. Richard is listed for the 1772-1890 Census,he was listed for 1790,Franklin Co, Pa, Page 112 ID# Pa sia 588749 and pas1a588776 of the 1790 Fedral Census Index.
Children of Richard & ?are
1. John Carpenter b, c1772, Va d, August 09, 1837 Fleming County Ky
2. Simon Carpenter, b, Oct 08, 1775 Ky, d. May 11,1859, Fleming County Ky
3. William Carpenter, b. 1777 Fleming County Ky d. Aug, 11, 1842 Fleming County Ky
4. Daniel Carpenter b. c1779, Va. d. Before 1850 Fleming County Ky
5. Henry Carpenter, b. c1784,Va,m.Mary Carpenter Apr 27 1805 Fleming County Ky.
6. David Carpenter, b. c1787,Va, m, Margret Kelly Feb 02, 1808 Flem,County Ky,
7. Elizabeth Carpenter, b. c 1789, d. bef,1835,Posey County Indiana, m. John Breese, Aug 14, 1807 Fleming County Ky.
8. Jane Carpenter, b. cc 1791 m. Joshua Fenton, m.(2) Richard Fenton, Aug 31,1812, Fleming County Ky
Thanks for any help If anyone has info on any of the above mentionsd carpenters and or Richards father Please contact me through my e mail or through the list Thanks in advance for any help. Bye 4 now
Jerry Tuttle
The number of Vikings who actually settled in Normandy
> was relatively small. Certainly not enough to replace the local
> population. What's more, the "Norman" invaders of England were in
> large part drawn from outside Normandy anyhow. Genetically, you'd
> have to say it was a "French" invasion.
>
> John Chandler
Certainly it is often said the Viking population was initially small.
However there were hundreds of years after of Norman rule in the duchy
and presumably Viking migration into the duchy. Which brings us back to my
original point.We know of all the Norman landowner-aristocrats, but
nothing of the probably many more Norman traders, many of whom went to
England as well, early on and later. You keep focusing on Norman knights.
Don't forget the crowd of other people, like the Chaucers for example.
My original point is certainly based on several unproven assumptions, but
nevertheless
deserves to be kept in mind. If merchants in the 13th century come to
England with Viking DNA, then there is good possibility they were Norman
traders. It is very unlikely they originated Poland or Turkey. I keep
hearing that English R1a is Viking-Norman from the obvious conclusion
anyone from the other areas would have been a rarity. For Carpenters the
problem remains when they came. It still seems to me R1a alone nudges Mr.
DeMelun out.
BC
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.