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Actually, the one liner goes like this:
"Would you like some cheese with that whine?"
There may be lots of Mariner whining when the Red Sox come to the Safe :)
Bruce E Carpenter wrote:
> "All this Winning going on on this list we should start serving Cheese !
> ( [:] + 0 )
> Jack Frosty"
>
> I'm jealous as heck because I haven't won anything on the website$B!!(Bexcept my
> debates with Zubrinsky and Chandler. What have you other guys and gals been
> winning, free Mariner game tickets? This is enough to make me start whining!
> I didn't get it about the 'cheese'. I thought people served champagne when
> they won. Jack Frosty must be a cheapskate.
>
> BC
--
**************************************************
| Jerry Carpenter, Managing Principal |
| CCS - Continental Consulting Strategies |
| Phone/Fax 253-826-0737 |
| mailto:jcarp@ccstrat.com |
| http://www.ccstrat.com |
**************************************************
Does anyone have information about this Carpenter? He is likely to be
related somehow to my Royal Carpenter, b. 1800 VT, whose family moved to
Franklin Co., OH in the early 3800s. Moses could be a brother.
Barbara Archer
Dear John C.,
The birth and baptisim dates come from the 1840s to 1880s and were based on research by an English researcher (Tim Stephens in Hants) who used Bible and Baptism dates. When I looked over the data (of some 350 names he submitted), while many of the Baptisms were conducted on the first Sunday of the month, many were not.
You are right in that many were done on Sundays but of the seven Churches he cited, the First Sunday only had a slight edge in the number of Baptisms.
The sample I used was too small and further examination indicates your sumary was more accurate.
On another subject ...
The following was sent to me and as you know my French is very poor. Most is a recap except for the following line:
"... parent de Hugue le Mainsné." Does this read as I think, "parent of Hugue?" or "relative of Hugue?"
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Désertions pendant le siège d'Antioche, selon l'Anonyme
Désertion de Pierre l'Ermite
Guillaume le Charpentier (1) et Pierre l'Ermite, à cause de cette grande calamité et de cette misère, s'évadèrent secrètement. Tancrède les poursuivit, les rattrapa et les ramena avec lui en grande honte. Ils lui donnèrent leur foi et leur serment qu'ils reviendraient volontiers au camp et feraient satisfaction aux seigneurs. [Guillaume fut réprimandé par Bohémond dans sa tente] Mais dans la suite le Charpentier, dévoré d'une grande honte, n'attendit pas longtemps pour fuir en cachette (2).
(1) Guillaume le Charpentier, vicomte de Melun, parent de Hugue le Mainsné. Il avait fait partie de l'armée de Godefroi de Bouillon.
(2) Il s'enfuit pendant le siège d'Antioche par Kerbôga.
Traduction prise dans Anonyme édité et traduit par Louis Bréhier, Histoire anonyme de la première croisade, Paris, Éditions " Les Belles Lettres ", 1964 (1924), p. 77-79.
http://www.callisto.si.usherb.ca/~croisade/Antioche.htm#antioche2
The Berkshire William Carpenter( b. 1576 in Great Coxwell) record is the
only the only William record that matches the age of Rehoboth William's
father. In no way can this Berkshire group of Carpenters be seen to descend
from William of Homme. Yet this 'William of Homme' nonsense persists, and
when it is thought the coast is clear, is trotted out.
The coast is not clear. That old genealogy is impossible and has been
disproved over and over again. It is a singular disappointment to see it
has been once again printed.
No more 'vertical bend sinister' please.
BC
Maybe we all should fing a good medium have a senace at William of
Rehoboth's grave.
See Ghost hunting tips on MSN Encarta page
http://encarta.msn.com/column/ghost101.asp
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
All this Winning going on on this list we should start serving Cheese !
( [:] + 0 )
Jack Frosty
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
john, i have been trying to find were my dads family came from . his father
was john s. carpenter m. sadie millikin she d. in 1950. there is a otto
carpenter m.ethel ,they had a son frankb.1912in mo. m thlma mann she was
born 1916 in mo d. 1985 in clay co ar .do you know any of this family i cant
seem to find out anything else thank you cheryl
----- Original Message -----
From: "John R. Carpenter" <jrcrin001(a)cox.net>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Re: Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle & a
Correction to the The Carpenter Family in America by Daniel C. Carpenter,
1901 book
> Hello,
>
> Jean Carlson noted the following discrepancy in The Carpenter Family in
America book by Daniel C.Carpenter, 1901.
>
> This is regarding Benjamin CARPENTER-24164 who is number 353 in that
record.
>
> She also provided Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle.
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John R. Carpenter
> To: j-carlson
> Cc: jrcrin001(a)cox.net
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle
>
>
> Dear Jean,
>
> The dates are too close. While it may be a chance, they appear to be
the same person.
>
> The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
> Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
> Dec 25, 1838
> Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of
Society of Friends.
>
> I double checked the death date in the 1901 book and it does say 17 Dec
1835. My guess is that we may have found a typo!
>
> I will make a note regarding this.
>
> And yes, I would be interested in seeing more. Okay to share on the
Carpenter forum?
>
> Good Ops!
>
> John R. Carpenter
> La Mesa, CA
>
> 1. Benjamin CARPENTER-24164 was born on 14
Nov 1775 in Sommers, Westchester,
> NY. He died on 17 Dec 1835/1838 in
Sommers, Westchester, NY.
>
> Number 353 in the book, The Carpenter
Family in America by Daniel C.
> Carpenter, 1901. Family and notes on
page 183. Died 17 Dec 1835 per this record.
>
> The Westchester Historian
Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
> Notices in the Hudson River
Chronicle - Deaths
> Dec 25, 1838
> Carpenter, Benjamin died in
Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of Society of Friends.
>
> Benjamin married (MRIN:9897) Martha WEEKS-24165 on 17 Feb 1803 in ,
Westchester, NY. Martha was born on 8 May 1785 in , Westchester, NY. She
died on 19 Sep 1831 in Sommers, Westchester, NY.
>
> They had the following children:
>
> 2 M i. Henry CARPENTER-24166 was born on 16 May 1804 in Sommers,
Westchester, NY. He died on 6 May 1884.
>
> Number 779 in the book, The Carpenter
Family in america by Daniel C.
> Carpenter, 1901. Family and notes on
page 257.
>
> Henry married (MRIN:9898) Eliza
MILLER-46032, daughter of Abraham MILLER-46033
(MRIN:17463), on 18 Oct 1826 in , , NY. Eliza was born on 9 Jul 1807 in , ,
NY.
> She died on 20 Nov 1878 in , , NY.
>
> 3 M ii. Robert N. CARPENTER-24167 was born about
1807 in Sommers, Westchester, NY.
> He died in 1882.
> Number 780 in the book, The Carpenter Family in
America by Daniel C.
> Carpenter, 1901. No Family listed.
>
> E-MAIL: Thu, 18 May 2000 From: "Marcia Buffett"
<pinezone(a)superior.net>
> Dear John:
> I've done abstracts of wills before where the
dates and names are just
> given. Do you do the same for indentures of
property deeds?
> Example:
> Indenture of deed, dated May 7th, 1864, between
Robert N. Carpenter and his
> wife Betsey of Hope, Hamilton Co., NY, conveying
50 acres of land to
> Danford A. Carpenter of Hope, Hamilton Co., NY
for the sum of $75.00.
> Recorded Jun 19, 1866, at Lake Pleasant
Courthouse, Book 7 pages 435 and
> 436. ... Marcia.
> (Maybe for this
Robert?)
> ****************************
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: j-carlson
> To: John R. Carpenter
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:44 AM
> Subject: Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I'm reading through an article & wonder if you've seen this & whether
you have the 18 Carpenters noted in it?
> Here is one
>
> The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
> Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
> Dec 25, 1838
> Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of
Society of Friends.
>
> If you've seen this source I won't bother copying & sending them to
you. This Benjamin has dates similar to a Benjamin Carpenter you once sent
me who was born 1775 & died 1835.
>
> To refresh your memory on those that I research...
> HAWKS - HAWXHURST - IRELAND - BARTON
>
> Jean Carlson
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: j-carlson
> To: John R. Carpenter
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 10:33 PM
> Subject: Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I may be slow but eventually I get to providing what I promise. <g>
> Of course, you may share this on the Carpenter Forum.
>
> Jean Carlson
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
> Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
> Note: Date in parentheses is date of newspaper issue.
>
> Carpenter, Adelia, dau of Josiah Carpenter. Died, in New York City,
April 2, 1842, age ab. 18. (April 12, 1842)
>
> Carpenter, Andrew G., of New York, formerly of Westchester Co.
Died, at residence of Alfred Riggs in Kendall, Orleans Co., Aug 19, 1841,
age 48, of dispepsia.
> Burial in Pleasantville. (Sept. 7, 1841; also Sept. 14, 1841)
>
> Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of
Society of Friends. (Dec 25, 1838)
>
> Carpenter, Benjamin. Died in Pleasant Valley, Dutchess Co., Dec.
27, 1843, age 82. Member of Society of Friends. Native of New Castle; for
last 50 years a resident of Dutchess Co. (Jan. 16, 1844)
>
> Carpenter, Isaac. Died, in New Castle, Jan. 29, 1844, age 52.
(Feb. 6, 1844)
>
> Carpenter, James. Died, in New Castle, March 13, 1846, age 48.
(March 17, 1846)
>
> Carpenter, James. Died, in Somers, July 17, 1840, age ab. 60. (July
21, 1840)
>
> Carpenter, James. Died, in Somers, July 8, 1840, age 63. (July 21,
1840)
>
> Carpenter, Jesse, eldest son of Thomas Carpepenter. Died, in
Somers, Sept 19, 1844, age 22. (Oct. 1, 1844)
>
> Carpenter, Mary, widow of the late Morris Carpenter. Died, in North
Castle, Dec. 9, 1840, age ab. 68. (Jan. 5, 1841)
>
> Carpenter, Matilda, eldest dau. of James Carpenter. Died, in New
Castle, Feb. 24, 1846, age ab. 23. (March 10, 1846)
>
> Carpenter, Phebe Jane Pierce (Mrs. Joseph), dau. of Isaac Pierce of
Sing Sing. Died, in New York, March 19, 1847, age 31. (March 30, 1847)
>
> Carpenter, Stephen, of New York. Died, in North Salem, July 16,
1844, age 44. (July 30, 1844)
>
> Carpenter, Stephen Olen, infant son of Washington and Lucinda
Carpenter. Died, in Ossining, March 9, 1846, age 1 yr. 4 mo. (March 10,
1846)
>
> Carpenter, Tamer Nelson (Mrs. Abm.), dau of Peter Nelson of Somers.
Died, in New York, Dec. 14, 1848, age ab. 27. (Jan. 9, 1849)
>
> Carpenter, Theodore. Died, in Sing Sing, April 28, 1844, age ab.
15. (April 30, 1844)
>
> Carpenter, Thomas C. Died, Jan. 29, 1844, age nearly 70. Member of
Purchase Monthly Meeting of Society of Friends. Obituary. (Feb. 6, 1844)
>
> Carpenter, Thomas Clapp, of Harrison. Died, in Port Chester, Dec.
29, 1843, age ab. 70. (Jan. 9, 1844)
>
>
>
One comment here is that "Snow" is a type of ship. My BLOSSER ancestors
imported on "the Snow Betsy"--it took a while before we figured out that
"Snow" described the type of vessel and "Betsy" was the vessel's name.
At 12:49 PM 4/17/2002 -0400, Maproski(a)aol.com wrote:
>In the publication Immigrants to t he New World, 1600 to 1800, emigrants to
>PA, "Servants and apprentices bound and assigned before James Hamilton Mayer
>or Philadelphia 1745, page 54: October 2d, 1745, passengers on the Snow,
>Capt. George Ambler.
>Charles Carrol, from Dublin, considration of 14 pounds paid by John Carpenter
>of Gloucester township N.J. to Robert Wakely for his passage and in further
>consideration of Carpenter teaching him trade of a weaver apprenticed for
>5 years."
>Where does this John Carpenter fit? Can send copy of page if interested.
>maproski(a)aol.com
In the publication Immigrants to t he New World, 1600 to 1800, emigrants to
PA, "Servants and apprentices bound and assigned before James Hamilton Mayer
or Philadelphia 1745, page 54: October 2d, 1745, passengers on the Snow,
Capt. George Ambler.
Charles Carrol, from Dublin, considration of 14 pounds paid by John Carpenter
of Gloucester township N.J. to Robert Wakely for his passage and in further
consideration of Carpenter teaching him trade of a weaver apprenticed for
5 years."
Where does this John Carpenter fit? Can send copy of page if interested.
maproski(a)aol.com
Hello,
Fay Carpenter produced a unique article In Search of the Vertical Green Bend Sinister.
I put it at the following web page with her permission. This was produced last year and was in Carpenter Chronicles produced by Bette Butcher Topp.
http://members.cox.net/jrcrin001/Faye04.html
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Hello,
Jean Carlson noted the following discrepancy in The Carpenter Family in America book by Daniel C.Carpenter, 1901.
This is regarding Benjamin CARPENTER-24164 who is number 353 in that record.
She also provided Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: John R. Carpenter
To: j-carlson
Cc: jrcrin001(a)cox.net
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle
Dear Jean,
The dates are too close. While it may be a chance, they appear to be the same person.
The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
Dec 25, 1838
Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of Society of Friends.
I double checked the death date in the 1901 book and it does say 17 Dec 1835. My guess is that we may have found a typo!
I will make a note regarding this.
And yes, I would be interested in seeing more. Okay to share on the Carpenter forum?
Good Ops!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
1. Benjamin CARPENTER-24164 was born on 14 Nov 1775 in Sommers, Westchester,
NY. He died on 17 Dec 1835/1838 in Sommers, Westchester, NY.
Number 353 in the book, The Carpenter Family in America by Daniel C.
Carpenter, 1901. Family and notes on page 183. Died 17 Dec 1835 per this record.
The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
Dec 25, 1838
Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of Society of Friends.
Benjamin married (MRIN:9897) Martha WEEKS-24165 on 17 Feb 1803 in , Westchester, NY. Martha was born on 8 May 1785 in , Westchester, NY. She died on 19 Sep 1831 in Sommers, Westchester, NY.
They had the following children:
2 M i. Henry CARPENTER-24166 was born on 16 May 1804 in Sommers, Westchester, NY. He died on 6 May 1884.
Number 779 in the book, The Carpenter Family in america by Daniel C.
Carpenter, 1901. Family and notes on page 257.
Henry married (MRIN:9898) Eliza MILLER-46032, daughter of Abraham MILLER-46033 (MRIN:17463), on 18 Oct 1826 in , , NY. Eliza was born on 9 Jul 1807 in , , NY.
She died on 20 Nov 1878 in , , NY.
3 M ii. Robert N. CARPENTER-24167 was born about 1807 in Sommers, Westchester, NY.
He died in 1882.
Number 780 in the book, The Carpenter Family in America by Daniel C.
Carpenter, 1901. No Family listed.
E-MAIL: Thu, 18 May 2000 From: "Marcia Buffett" <pinezone(a)superior.net>
Dear John:
I've done abstracts of wills before where the dates and names are just
given. Do you do the same for indentures of property deeds?
Example:
Indenture of deed, dated May 7th, 1864, between Robert N. Carpenter and his
wife Betsey of Hope, Hamilton Co., NY, conveying 50 acres of land to
Danford A. Carpenter of Hope, Hamilton Co., NY for the sum of $75.00.
Recorded Jun 19, 1866, at Lake Pleasant Courthouse, Book 7 pages 435 and
436. ... Marcia.
(Maybe for this Robert?)
****************************
----- Original Message -----
From: j-carlson
To: John R. Carpenter
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:44 AM
Subject: Carpenters noted in the Hudson River Chronicle
Hi John,
I'm reading through an article & wonder if you've seen this & whether you have the 18 Carpenters noted in it?
Here is one
The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
Dec 25, 1838
Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of Society of Friends.
If you've seen this source I won't bother copying & sending them to you. This Benjamin has dates similar to a Benjamin Carpenter you once sent me who was born 1775 & died 1835.
To refresh your memory on those that I research...
HAWKS - HAWXHURST - IRELAND - BARTON
Jean Carlson
----- Original Message -----
From: j-carlson
To: John R. Carpenter
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 10:33 PM
Subject: Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
Hi John,
I may be slow but eventually I get to providing what I promise. <g>
Of course, you may share this on the Carpenter Forum.
Jean Carlson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Westchester Historian Volume 66 No. 4 Fall 1990, page 91
Notices in the Hudson River Chronicle - Deaths
Note: Date in parentheses is date of newspaper issue.
Carpenter, Adelia, dau of Josiah Carpenter. Died, in New York City, April 2, 1842, age ab. 18. (April 12, 1842)
Carpenter, Andrew G., of New York, formerly of Westchester Co. Died, at residence of Alfred Riggs in Kendall, Orleans Co., Aug 19, 1841, age 48, of dispepsia.
Burial in Pleasantville. (Sept. 7, 1841; also Sept. 14, 1841)
Carpenter, Benjamin died in Somers Dec 17, 1838, age 62. Member of Society of Friends. (Dec 25, 1838)
Carpenter, Benjamin. Died in Pleasant Valley, Dutchess Co., Dec. 27, 1843, age 82. Member of Society of Friends. Native of New Castle; for last 50 years a resident of Dutchess Co. (Jan. 16, 1844)
Carpenter, Isaac. Died, in New Castle, Jan. 29, 1844, age 52. (Feb. 6, 1844)
Carpenter, James. Died, in New Castle, March 13, 1846, age 48. (March 17, 1846)
Carpenter, James. Died, in Somers, July 17, 1840, age ab. 60. (July 21, 1840)
Carpenter, James. Died, in Somers, July 8, 1840, age 63. (July 21, 1840)
Carpenter, Jesse, eldest son of Thomas Carpepenter. Died, in Somers, Sept 19, 1844, age 22. (Oct. 1, 1844)
Carpenter, Mary, widow of the late Morris Carpenter. Died, in North Castle, Dec. 9, 1840, age ab. 68. (Jan. 5, 1841)
Carpenter, Matilda, eldest dau. of James Carpenter. Died, in New Castle, Feb. 24, 1846, age ab. 23. (March 10, 1846)
Carpenter, Phebe Jane Pierce (Mrs. Joseph), dau. of Isaac Pierce of Sing Sing. Died, in New York, March 19, 1847, age 31. (March 30, 1847)
Carpenter, Stephen, of New York. Died, in North Salem, July 16, 1844, age 44. (July 30, 1844)
Carpenter, Stephen Olen, infant son of Washington and Lucinda Carpenter. Died, in Ossining, March 9, 1846, age 1 yr. 4 mo. (March 10, 1846)
Carpenter, Tamer Nelson (Mrs. Abm.), dau of Peter Nelson of Somers. Died, in New York, Dec. 14, 1848, age ab. 27. (Jan. 9, 1849)
Carpenter, Theodore. Died, in Sing Sing, April 28, 1844, age ab. 15. (April 30, 1844)
Carpenter, Thomas C. Died, Jan. 29, 1844, age nearly 70. Member of Purchase Monthly Meeting of Society of Friends. Obituary. (Feb. 6, 1844)
Carpenter, Thomas Clapp, of Harrison. Died, in Port Chester, Dec. 29, 1843, age ab. 70. (Jan. 9, 1844)
Dear Judith,
No matches but the following is from a quick search in the IGI.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
*****
IGI data.
Athalinda CARPENTER Sex: F
Marriage(s):
Spouse: Thomas FINCH
Marriage: 23 Apr 1859 Saint George, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Batch number: Dates Source Call No. Type Printout Call No. Type
M150804 1855-1903 1596529 Film
Film or fiche number
1596529
Film/fiche search results
Parish registers, 1756-1990 Church of England. St. George's Church
(Bristol, Gloucestershire)
*****
The closest IGI match with Benjamin and Ann ...
Benjamin CARPENTER Sex: M
Marriage(s):
Spouse: Ann WHITEHOUSE
Marriage: 31 Aug 1818 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick, England
Batch number: Dates Source Call No. Type Printout Call No. Type
M010723 1796-1817 0919779-781 Film 6900689 Film
Film or fiche number
0919779
Film/fiche search results
Parish registers, 1555-1915 Church of England. St. Martin's Church
(Birmingham, Warwickshire
Film or fiche number
6900689 Number of Fiche: 18
Film/fiche search results
Computer printout of Birmingham, St. Martin, Warwickshire, England
*****
You searched for: , All Countries
Father: Benjamin Carpenter, Mother: Ann
Exact Spelling: Off
International Genealogical Index - British Isles
12. Matilda CARPENTER - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: F Christening: 25 May 1820 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick,
England
1. Sarah CARPENTER - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: F Christening: 30 Sep 1822 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick,
England
2. Thomas CARPENTER - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: M Christening: 29 Dec 1824 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick,
England
3. Benjamin CARPENTER - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: M Christening: 3 Mar 1833 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick, England
4. Ann CARPENTER - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: F Christening: 26 Mar 1837 Saint Thomas, Birmingham, Warwick,
England
*****
Thomas FINCH Sex: M
Event(s):
Christening: 30 Apr 1820 Charlton Kings, Gloucester, England
Parents:
Father: Thomas FINCH
Mother: Hester ASHMEAD
Film Number: 537943 Film or fiche number
537943
Film/fiche search results
Sealings for the dead, couples and children (includes some living spouses
and children) 1943-1970; heir indexes, 1943-1965 Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints. Salt Lake Temple
AND
Film Number: 537731
Page Number: 34
Reference Number: 38357
*******
----- Original Message -----
From: "kotuku1" <kotuku1(a)ihug.co.nz>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:37 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Athalinda in Gloucester/Wiltshire, England
> I am looking for a connection to my great-great grandmother’s family
>
> She was Athalinda Carpenter
> Born 23 November 1839
> In Kingswood, Wotton-under-Edge, Gloucester/Wiltshire, England
>
> Her parents were Benjamin and Ann Carpenter
>
> Any information would be welcome
> With thanks
> Judith
>
> ______________________________
Dear John C.,
Something I noticed when doing the CE CD was that often English baptisims
took place near the first of the month following the birth in many rural and
semi-rural areas. This was mostly on a Sunday per my computer date
calculator. This is based on when birth and baptisim dates were given.
My guess is this may be when the "full-time" priest was present? I wonder
if a study has ever been done on this?
Also, I have seen where most of the children were baptised on one day. This
may have meant a move to the area or change in worship.
I do know that during most history that a child was very rarely baptised on
or near its birthday.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "John F. Chandler" <JCHBN(a)CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] English baptisms
> Bruce wrote:
> > "William Camden noted that in the early 16th century baptism took place
on
> > the day of birth or the following day (p. 342)."
>
> That's absurd. In many parishes, nearly all the baptisms were on Sunday,
> as indicated by the parish registers. Is Camden speaking only of the
> time BEFORE baptism records were kept?
>
> John Chandler
>
> ______________________________
I've been lurking, but really must jump in here. First, I don't think the
ad hominem remarks below (or in the subject line) are justified. None of
the records discussed, it seems to me, call any of the affirmative
conclusions of Gene's article into question. At most, they suggest avenues
for further research. I don't think one can fairly criticize Gene's article
on the basis that he did not look at these records.
On the broader point, I think it's critically important to keep in mind at
all times that the documentary record is very incomplete -- even for a
parish with extant records. We run into this problem even in the 18th
century in Massachusetts, where records are fairly good, and it's increased
by an order or two of magnitude when one looks at 16th century
Berks/Wilts/Hants. Put simply, it seems to me that it is equally likely
that William baptized in 1576 is a first cousin of William of the Bevis, a
second cousin, or even a third, rather than the same person. Or completely
unrelated. If there are insufficient bases to distinguish between these
various possibilities, then maybe one should be cautious about declaring
that one or another is better supported by "the evidence."
One further point: posting on the internet, whether or not to an archived
site, is publishing by most definitions of that term. It seems to me that
the same care should be taken, and the same disclaimers offered, when
publishing in this format. Indeed, maybe more care is warranted, because of
the lack of pre-publication peer review.
Bruce, you are doing very fine work at digging out primary source material.
All appreciate it, I'm sure. You should be careful, though, about letting
yourself get carried away with the possible implications of these
discoveries.
Charley
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce E Carpenter [mailto:carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 7:26 PM
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CARPENTER] Gene covering up?
Any accusation of hit or miss scholarship should be laid
right at the door of Mr. Zubrinsky who authored an article about Carpenters
in Berkshire without having reviewed all the available evidence.
The very first rule in historical research is to gather all the evidence.
Mr. Zubrinsky neither knew about the Berkshire probate documents at Oxford
Universit,y nor knew about a William Carpenter's christening record for
1576, right in Berkshire! All this material was readily available to him.
It simply escapes me how how he has the nerve to pretend to any thoroughness
or careful scholarship.
As for myself. I am simply gathering the evidence. I haven't
published anything yet. However, when I do, I can assure you I will have
gathered all the evidence.
BC
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Dear John C.,
The following web pages has great explanations for some of those "olde
English" and other phrases.
They are interesting and help break myth from the facts. That and trying to
understand odd phrases of our Ancestors!
The one odd phrase I have never been able to figure out came from a letter
by my grandfather referring to something about his father. Unfortunately he
was long dead before I found the letter. My best guess is that it was
something to do with either boxing or wrestling. But no one seems sure of
what it means!
The phrase is: "His five point better than six."
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
World Wide Words
Investigating International English from a British viewpoint
http://www.worldwidewords.org/index.htm
"spit 'n' image"
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-spi1.htm
"Several phrases have been used down the years to indicate that one person
is the exact likeness of another: spitten image, spit and image, the very
spit of, and dead spit for.
There are several theories about how these came about. The two most common
suggest that our modern phrase is, via one or other of these forms, a
corruption of spit and image. This contains the even older spit which
existed by itself in phrases such as the last two above. Larry Horn,
Professor of Linguistics at Yale, argues convincingly that the original form
was actually spitten image, using the old dialectal past participle form of
spit. He suggests that the phrase was reinterpreted when that form went out
of use, first as spit 'n' image and then as spit and image or spitting
image."
>From the web page above "spit 'n' image" seems to be a reference to the
similarity of the same sex offspring.
******
"hickory dickory dock"
http://www.rooneydesign.com/Hickory.html
"This limerick rings in with a classic example of onomatopoeia, which, as
all you English majors know, is a word that imitates a sound - like ah-choo,
boom, bong, bop, burp, chomp, chop, clap, coo-coo, creak, ding-dong, groan,
gulp, moan, plop, pow, rap, ring, slam, slap, slurp, stomp, tap, wham, zoom,
snap, crackle, pop and tick-tock. "Hickory dickory dock" sounds like an old
grandfather clock with hiccups. Another interpretation claims the words were
numbers used by medieval shepherds to count their flock. These shepherds
came home from a hard day in the pasture and put their children to sleep by
counting sheep with the same rhyme."
"... It WAS their primary way of spreading gossip and alluding to what could
not be said openly. Travelling minstrels carried news and stories as well as
history in the form of songs and rhymes in a time when few people traveled
beyond their own villages and even fewer were literate."
******
"a cat can look at a king"
http://www.bartleby.com/81/3163.html
E. Cobham Brewer 1810-1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.
Cat may look at a King (A).
An insolent remark of insubordination, meaning, "I am as good as you", or
"Are you too mighty to be spoken to or looked at?" "You may wear stars and
ribbons, and I may be dressed in hodden grey, but a man's a man for a'
that." 1
*******
"Saved by the bell" and "dead ringer."
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sav1.htmhttp://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-rin1.htm
********
----- Original Message -----
From: "John F. Chandler" <JCHBN(a)CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
... ; "CARPENTER-L" <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: HISTORY LESSON
> I hope everybody understands that the "lesson" on the 1500's is an
> extended joke. Some of the items fall a little flat, but some of them
> are very funny. My favorite is the one about "dead ringers" (I'm not
> sure what this says about my sense of humor). At any rate, everything
> in the "lesson" is a lie at some level. It appears to have been posted
> (to the Kent History group) late in the day on Sunday, March 31 (in
> anticipation of the following morning), but, alas, it is not a new joke.
> It has made the rounds several times in the past few years. Maybe next
> year someone can invent a new joke that will "explain" some other
> cliches, such as "a cat can look at a king" or "spit 'n' image" or
> "hickory dickory dock"...
>
> John Chandler
>
> ______________________________
<< For Wiltshire roads the Victoria History of Wiltshire is the best. It
shows that the
first only really decent road (Turnpike Road) in existence before 1750 was
from Hungerford to Amesbury. A good road was built from Hungerford to
Amesbury only after 1750. >>
Inadvertent contradiction?
I am looking for a connection to my great-great grandmother’s family
She was Athalinda Carpenter
Born 23 November 1839
In Kingswood, Wotton-under-Edge, Gloucester/Wiltshire, England
Her parents were Benjamin and Ann Carpenter
Any information would be welcome
With thanks
Judith
<< Mr. Zubrinsky neither knew about the Berkshire probate documents at Oxford
Universit.y nor knew about a William Carpenter's christening record for 1576,
right in Berkshire! All this material was readily available to him. >>
("The best defense is a good offense"?) While I don't know about the
material's being "readily available" in 1995 (the Berkshire probates
certainly weren't online), it is true I didn't have that information. My
conclusions in no way depend on it. My article accomplishes what I intended,
which was to share important findings from the Shalbourne records and revise
the birth order of Williams2's children, based on those findings and on an
analysis of certain colonial records. The article does not overreach (the
subject of the current debate): my conclusions are in keeping with the
evidence. The article is not and does not propose to be about the parentage
of William1. Had I known of the 1576 Great Coxwell baptism of a William
Carpenter, I would have mentioned it (perhaps in a footnote) and described it
for what it is: an item deserving further, related research--period. As to
the Berkshire probates, they have as yet added nothing discernibly relevant.
The only conclusion to have drawn in 1995 is the one that remains appropriate
today: the parentage of William1 remains unknown.
<< As for myself. I am simply gathering the evidence. I haven't published
anything yet. However, when I do, I can assure you I will have gathered all
the evidence. >>
Unfortunately, one publishes (i.e., makes public) information with every
online posting. But certainly no journal will accept the present
pronouncements without adequate supporting evidence, which has yet to be
found. I'm amused that someone who makes far too much out of so little would
speak of gathering "all the evidence"--particularly after indicating
(correctly) that conclusive evidence may not be extant. (If that's the case,
then NO conclusion is warranted.) Even if having all the evidence were
Bruce's priority--his assertions demonstrate that it is not--how will he know
when he has it? The issue is not whether one has all the evidence but
whether the evidence one has is sufficient in quality and quantity as to
justify a particular conclusion. Attempting to shift the debate accomplishes
nothing.
Gene Z.
I have about 500 baptisms from the 16th century, collected from a
variety of published genealogies, transcriptions, and extracts of
parish registers. None of them happen to be from Berkshire or
Wiltshire, but many other counties are represented. I find that,
in many parishes, the only baptisms I have were indeed on Sundays
-- two parishes in Norfolk, three in Suffolk, two in Essex, one in
Kent, one in Hertfordshire, and one in Dorset. In others, *none*
of the baptisms I have were on Sundays. Overall, a majority of
baptisms were on Sunday. What's more, there is a significant
increase of baptisms listed on Saturday or Monday compared to the
rest of the week, suggesting that as many as 10% of the dates were
recorded in error by plus or minus a day, or else that some people
positively avoided Sunday baptisms.
Bottom line: the preponderance of Sunday baptisms is incompatible
with a custom of baptism within a day of birth.
John Chandler
The Berkshire parish registers, and the Berkshire probate documents at
Oxford University, generate a number of interesting inferences. For example
the Robert Carpenter of Bradfield (b. 1550), who would be a prime candidate
for uncle of William Carpenter b. 1576 and brother of his father Henry,
ceases from the Berkshire record after his oldest child is born c. 1590. The
only other Robert who could possibly be him in the record is a Robert
Carpenter in Shalbourne in 1609.
The William Carpenter who appears in Great Bedwin (next to Shalbourne) for
1613 is only compromised by another William Carpenter who had a son
christened in Pangbourne (next to Hungerford) in 1616. However the
Pangbourne Carpenters show evidence o maintaining themselves in Pangbourne
later and evidence for being in Pangbourne earlier than 1616. Great Bedwin
William seems another William Carpenter, but is one of the only two who seem
the William b. 1576.
Other inferences to follow.
BC
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.