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"In a word, no, I will not."
This should read, In a word, no, I could not.
As for Chandler's other examples, I don't trust the source.
I gave him one thousand wills to prove his point.
Start looking or shut up.
BC
In a message dated 10/22/02 10:28:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp writes:
> "In a word, no, I will not."
>
> This should read, In a word, no, I could not.
> As for Chandler's other examples, I@don't trust the source.
>
> I gave him one thousand wills to@prove his point.
>
I'm unsubscribing so I don't have to receive such childishness in my mailbox.
I'll gladly go through the trouble to use the search engine in the archives.
Jill Watters Rains
A Carpenter descendant that has no tolerance for such childishness among men.
In a message dated 10/22/02 2:11:53 PM Central Daylight Time, GeneZub(a)aol.com
writes:
> . At this
> point, the degree of speculation makes intelligent discussion impossible.
>
Condescending remarks make discussions purt' near impossible too!
Possibilities and probabilities should be all laid out on the table...and
every person's thoughts should be given respect. I've heard a lot about how
educated these people were and so we should assume that the records in
England should be revered as practically holy. Hogwash! EVERYONE is
human...even back in England, and even highly educated people.
Come on Carpenter researchers...can't we have discussions without speaking so
haughtily? It's about all the strife one person can take!
Jill Watters Rains
<< The Amesbury parish death record for a 1625 death of a Richard Carpenter
might well have been a child. >>
Leave out the "well," and I agree. I expressed only the possibility that the
Richard buried at Amesbury on 21 Sept. 1625 was Providence William's father:
"Clearly, Richard (buried at Amesbury, 21 Sept. 1625?) had died intestate ...
." We know, however, that an adult Richard Carpenter lived at Amesbury; we
know of no child of that name there.
<< The 1671 will of William Carpenter, which mentions his father's Amesbury
property, was after all written in 1671. What would be odd about William
being
heir to his father's assets in 1671? Thomas could have easily been dead by
then. >>
Providence William's will is dated in 1679/80 (codicil in 1683/4). His 1671
deed to Fridgswith says nothing about the Amesbury property's having devolved
to him as the result of a brother's death. It's quite straightforward in
saying that it 'fell to my right as I WAS the son and heir unto my said
father Richard Carpenter [emphasis added]." This indicates William's status
not in 1671 but at the time of his father's death, which was almost certainly
long since. Sure, Abingdon Robert's brother Thomas may have died by 1671,
but he also would have had to predecease his father--and have had no
heirs--for the latter's property to go by law to a younger son. At this
point, the degree of speculation makes intelligent discussion impossible.
Abingdon Robert's will says nothing about a sister Fridgswith/Fridizweed/etc.
or Vincent and presumably says nothing about a brother William or property in
Amesbury. Inventions that stray so far from the available evidence and
attempt to force a desired outcome have no place in the research process.
<< This note from LaMesa John strikes me as of possible importance and
interest. Was Richard Carpenter of Amesbury a local innkeeper? Innkeepers and
brewers were closely related professions. Did sister Fridgswith keep the
Amesbury
property for William who inherited it. Did she continue to run it? At last he
finally
gave it to her. Was William unwilling to admit his father was an innkeeper? >>
Geez!!!
Gene Z.
<< See my notes below on "Ffridizwood Carpenter Vincent." >>
The name appears in her Amesbury burial record as "ffridizweed" and is
appropriately transcribed as "Fridizweed." The "ff" (not "Ff") is equivalent
to "F". The "oo" is actually "ee". The lower-case "e" in 16th- and
17th-century handwriting is often mistaken for "o" by the uninitiated reader.
Gene Z.
"SEE: Amesbury Parish Records. Burial of "Ffridizwood Vincent was buryd
november 22nd 1680." The Three Tuns Inn that was kept by Fridgswith is
still
in existance now known as the New Inn and has little evidence of its
antiquity.
Per Mary Underwood, Treasurer, Amesbury Society, 2 April 1992."
This note from LaMesa John strikes me as of possible importance and
interest.
Was Richard Carpenter of Amesbury a local innkeeper? Innkeepers and brewers
were closely related professions. Did sister Fridgswith keep the Amesbury
property
for William who inherited it. Did she continue to run it? At last he finally
gave it to her.
Was William unwilling to admit his father was an innkeeper?
BC
Would Mr. Chandler please go to the thousand wills now online
at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/BRKwills/ and please find
me ONE example of a sister referred to by only her last name.
I could conceive of such a thing in a New England will form a small village
where all knew one another. But please, in a English PCC will?
Bruce Carpenter
Nara,. Japan
According to Mr. Zubrinsky one hundred marks to a daughter is not much,
but according to the real authority on the subject , Mildred Cambell,
'The English Yeoman', that amount would easily be two years income for
most English Yeoman of the day.
The Amesbury parish death record for a 1625 death of a Richard Carpenter
might well have been a child.
The 1671 will of William Carpenter, which mentions his father's Amesbury
property, was after all written in 1671. What would be odd about William
being
heir to his father's assets in 1671? Thomas could have easily been dead by
then.
I don't understand Mr. Zubrinsky's point.
English wills I have seen are full of diminutives. I have seen a diminutive
in one part of a will and the full version in another part.
I can assure all that the will is beautifully written. The name is "Hidges".
It is not a case of "FF" mistaken for an "H". The "H" is completely
clear.
Bruce Carpenter
Nara, Japan
I am trying to find info on Renewed CARPENTER b. 1766 in S. Kingston, RI. She married David Davis. They are buried in Springwater, NY(Livingston). Does anyone know the parents of David Davis?
sue
<< "unto my sister Hidges twenty-three shillings." The handwriting is quite
legible and "Hidges " is the name. I can only assume this was sister
Fridgeswith (or other variant spellings) in a diminutive form. >>
I meant to include in my initial reply to the above passage that "my sister
Hidges" is almost certainly a surname reference, probably to the testator's
sister-in-law. Hidges (variant of Hedges?) is a surname found in England,
including Berkshire, in the seventeenth century.
Gene Z.
In a message dated 10/22/02 12:12:26 AM Central Daylight Time,
jessekathyhight(a)hotmail.com writes:
> At long last, I now know where I got the strong desire to always have to
> have the last word! (And be right!) It was a family inheritance.
> KathyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
>
LOL! That's great! I'll have to tell mother all about it! <G>
Jill :]
Hello, I sent an email to your address. In case you don't get that message,
I am posting here. I am descended from George Carpenter from VA (b. May
05,1783 d. 1859 Shelby Co., KY). His wife is listed as Maria (Mary) (last
name unknown). The list of children I have is the same as yours, except I
don't have Susan in my list.
I would like to exchange info with you. You can email me at:
tomcarp(a)insightbb.com
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle Reed" <l.glenn.r(a)worldnet.att.net>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 12:43 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] George Carpenter Virginia to Kentucky
> Good evening,
>
> Our portion of the Carpenter family consists of the following family
members
> located first in Virginia and later, homesteading in Shelby County,
> Kentucky sometime in the early 1800's.
>
> George Carpenter b. 1783 m. Mary Belcher 1810 in Virginia d. 1859 Shelby
> County, Kentucky.
>
> Children: Matilda b. 1812, Joshua b. 1814, Elizabeth b. 1816, Arthusa
b.
> 1818, Susan b. 1821, James b. 1824, Frances b. 1826, William b. 1828, Mary
> b. 1831, Margaret b. 1832 (my husband's ggrandmother).
>
> Looking for more insight into our family,
> Melvina Reed
> l.glenn.r(a)worldnet.att.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bruce, in his usual pugnacious fashion, wrote:
> Would Mr. Chandler please go to the thousand wills now online
> at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/BRKwills/ and please find
> me ONE example of a sister referred to by only her last name.
In a word, no, I will not. However, I will point out a will that is
probably at PCC, and which you can find abstracted in the NEHGR v40,
pp.401ff. One William Cooledge of Cottenham in Cambridgeshire,
proved 1618 Oct 31. The will refers to the usual immediate family
and then a brother John and a sister Rymer. Another will, that of
William Ravens of Dedham, Essex, proved 1580 Dec 29 at PCC, refers
to a sister Baker. Another will, that of Richard Marshall of
Exeter, Devon, proved 1635 Aug 8 at PCC, refers to a sister
Trobridge. Another will, that of Robert Brooke of London, proved
1551 Jul 21 at PCC, refers to a sister Day.
> I could conceive of such a thing in a New England will form a small village
> where all knew one another. But please, in a English PCC will?
The wills proved at Canterbury were not chosen for their precision of
expression, but solely because of jurisdiction. Deal with it.
John Chandler
At long last, I now know where I got the strong desire to always have to have the last word! (And be right!) It was a family inheritance.
KathyGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Although I have no idea what the diminutive of the name was?
Bruce, John,& Gene
Please exhuse my ignorance but what is ment by :
"the diminutive of the name " is it like a Nickname/
John in New Hampshire
_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
Bruce wrote:
> The English section dated December 1635 only names a sister of Robert. It
> reads, "unto my sister Hidges twenty-three shillings. The handwriting is
> quite legible and "Hidges " is the name.
It was a common practice at that time to refer in one's will to a married
sister by her surname alone. Try looking for a marriage between a
female CARPENTER and a male HEDGES or HIDGES.
John Chandler
<< The contents of the will deal with large sums of money given to Robert's
daughters Elizabeth and Mary. The amount was one hundred marks each. >>
Not all that large. One hundred marks amounted to £66 13s. 4d.
<< "unto my sister Hidges twenty-three shillings." The handwriting is quite
legible and "Hidges " is the name. I can only assume this was sister
Fridgeswith (or other variant spellings) in a diminutive form. >>
If one begins with the assumption that testator Robert of Abingdon,
Berkshire, was Providence William's brother, then I suppose the
Hidges-as-diminutive-of-Fridgswith assumption seems a logical extension.
Otherwise, however, it seems unlikely that such a formal document as a will
would use a diminutive, particularly when no other record containing
William's sister's name does so: she appears as Fridgswith in the 1671 deed
from William, Frittisweed in the Amesbury baptismal records of sons Thomas
(1635) and William (1638), and Fridizweed in her Amesbury burial record (22
Nov. 1680). Although I have no idea what the diminutive of the name was, I
suspect it was something like Friddie/Frittie/Fridzie.
<< My reading of all this was that Robert was the oldest brother and holder
of most of the family assets. William had gone to the New World. When Thomas
left for the New World when word reached him that his older brother died and
he was now in charge of the family. He returns to England, or never left to
begin with, and subsequently joins in litigation concerning family assets.
His sister Fridgeswith was already married to Mr. Vincent by this juncture
and merely received a token in her brother's will. William perhaps born in
Steventon, Berkshire in 1615 must have been the youngest. >>
What a rich imagination. In his deed of the Amesbury messuage to sister
Fridgswith, Providence William says that the "house did in the original
belong to my Father Richard Carpenter now deceased, but fell to my right as I
was the son and heir unto my said father." Clearly, Richard (buried at
Amesbury, 21 Sept. 1625?) had died intestate, and his property was
distributed to William under prevailing English law--primogeniture, or
inheritance by the eldest son.
Gene
Dear Bruce E.,
Are you sure it is not a double "F"? The handwritten F followed by a small
f may look like a H.
Your "Hidges" may be Ffidges"??? See my notes below on "Ffridizwood
Carpenter Vincent."
Can you scan that portion and send a copy to Gene Zubrinsky for example? He
may be able to help out.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
SEE: Amesbury Parish Records. Burial of "Ffridizwood Vincent was buryd
november 22nd 1680." The Three Tuns Inn that was kept by Fridgswith is
still
in existance now known as the New Inn and has little evidence of its
antiquity.
Per Mary Underwood, Treasurer, Amesbury Society, 2 April 1992.
SEE: BROTHER WILLIAM'S NOTES. SHE PROBABLY DIED IN ENGLAND AFTER HER
HUSBAND'S DEATH. HER BROTHER WILLIAM THEN BROUGHT HER 2 CHILDREN TO AMERICA.
SEE DETAIL IN BOOK.
FRINGEWITH = FRIDGWITH (AMERICAN VERSION?)
AFN 8NHZ-PS and MTL8-JB (Frigewith) are the same person.
SEE: "History and Genealogy of the CARPENTER FAMILY IN AMERICA" from the
settlement at Providence, RI 1637-1901. By Daniel Hoogland Carpenter of
Mapelwood, Essex, NJ. Published by the Marion Press of Jamacia,
Queensborough, NY in 1901. 370 Pages. Page 9 and 10 which states that on
14 Dec 1671, her brother William gives the "dwelling house and all what land
that belongst to me adjoining said house the which said house is standing in
the town of Amesbury" on Frog Lane to Fridgswith Vincent "an inhabitant of
said town."
Book of Deeds, Providence, RI, page 449.
"signes William Carpenter [seal]. recorded at providence, in book of deeds,
page # 449 Witnessed by Timothy ,Silas, Benjamin, and William Carpenter Jr."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce E Carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:09 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Prov. Wm. problem
> The will I recently discovered suggesting William of Providence's brother
in
> Abingdon, Berkshire had an English portion which I have gained a copy.
>
> The Latin portion which I reported on previously referred to Robert of
> Abingdon's father Richard, mother Alice and brother Thomas in early 1637.
> The contents of the will deal with large sums of money given to Robert's
> daughters Elizabeth and Mary. The amount was one hundred marks each.
>
> The English section dated December 1635 only names a sister of Robert. It
> reads, "unto my sister Hidges twenty-three shillings. The handwriting is
> quite legible and "Hidges " is the name. I can only assume this was sister
> Fridgeswith (or other variant spellings) in a diminutive form.
>
> My reading of all this was that Robert was the oldest brother and holder
of
> most of the family assets. William had gone to
> the New World. When Thomas left for the New World when word reached him
that
> his older brother died and he was now in charge of the family. He returns
to
> England, or never left to begin with, and subsequently joins in litigation
> concerning family assets. His sister Fridgeswith was already married to
Mr.
> Vincent by this juncture and merely received a token in her brother's
will.
> William perhaps born in Steventon, Berkshire in 1615 must have been the
> youngest.
>
> Would appreciate any assistance on the above "Hidges" problem. St.
> Frideswide or Frydeswyde was a Oxford-Berkshire area saint.
>
> Bruce Carpenter
> Nara, Japan
>
The will I recently discovered suggesting William of Providence's brother in
Abingdon, Berkshire had an English portion which I have gained a copy.
The Latin portion which I reported on previously referred to Robert of
Abingdon's father Richard, mother Alice and brother Thomas in early 1637.
The contents of the will deal with large sums of money given to Robert's
daughters Elizabeth and Mary. The amount was one hundred marks each.
The English section dated December 1635 only names a sister of Robert. It
reads, "unto my sister Hidges twenty-three shillings. The handwriting is
quite legible and "Hidges " is the name. I can only assume this was sister
Fridgeswith (or other variant spellings) in a diminutive form.
My reading of all this was that Robert was the oldest brother and holder of
most of the family assets. William had gone to
the New World. When Thomas left for the New World when word reached him that
his older brother died and he was now in charge of the family. He returns to
England, or never left to begin with, and subsequently joins in litigation
concerning family assets. His sister Fridgeswith was already married to Mr.
Vincent by this juncture and merely received a token in her brother's will.
William perhaps born in Steventon, Berkshire in 1615 must have been the
youngest.
Would appreciate any assistance on the above "Hidges" problem. St.
Frideswide or Frydeswyde was a Oxford-Berkshire area saint.
Bruce Carpenter
Nara, Japan
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.