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Dear Bruce E.,
I was aware that William "the carpenter" De Melun was of royal blood and
a cousin to Hughes and a sibling to Philippe I who was King of France.
Both were sons of Henry I through different mothers.
The "cousin" relationship has not been clarified regarding William to
Hughes. Was he a cousin to Philippe also? Because of the way the phrase
is worded - maybe so, maybe not.
Were they cousins through marriage by Yaroslavna, Anna of Kiev, Princess
the first wife of Henry I and mother to Philippe?
Were they cousins through marriage by De Germany, Matilda, Princess the
second wife of Henry I and mother to Hughes?
Were they cousins by the marriage of Hugh to Countess Adelaide (Adele)
of Vermandois the daughter of Herbert IV VERMANDOIS and Adela de Waer
VEXIN?
(The connection to the Meulan (not Melun) line has been established.)
If you or anyone else can shed light on this, it would be helpful!
Sincerely,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
carpenter wrote:
>
> Forgot this. At the conclusion of the section on William 'the carpenter'
> DeMelun is the following. " qu'il etoit issu de race royale & cousin de
> Hugues de France,
> compte de Vermandois, frere du roi Philippe."
> BC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> Cc: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 3:57 PM
> Subject: Melun
>
> > Dear Bruce E.,
> >
> > Is it possible to get a photo copy of the Melun Family as described in
> > volume 5 which has an extensive genealogy and history of the Melun
> > family?
> >
> > I would be more than happy to send a check to cover costs.
> >
> > I am not surprised to hear nothing about the youngest son of William
> > "the carpenter" De Melun in an "official" history. He fought against
> > the French Crown and was an outcast.
> >
> > I have tried to get a copy of the Pere Anselme books for some time. My
> > resources (and limits on my costs) did not allow me to secure a copy.
> >
> > Anselme, Père: Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la Maison de
> > France. Paris, 1967; Éditions du Palais-Royal.[original edition 1726-33;
> > reprinted 1868-90 and continued for the 19th century by Pol Potier de
> > Courcy].
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject:
> > [CARPENTER] MELUN
> > Date:
> > Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:43:42 -0500
> > From:
> > "carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > To:
> > CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >
> >
> >
> > I now have the ten odd volumes of the great
> > French genealogist Pere Amslem or Father Anslem of the 18th century.
> > In volume 5 is an extensive genealogy and history of the Melun family.
> > William 'the carpenter' DeMelun and his descendants and fully accounted
> > for.
> > Not only are their names and marriages noted, but also thier activities.
> > Indeed the Melun family seems to have been an important aristocratic
> > lineage in France with important descendants into the 16th century.
> >
> > The line began with Vicompte de Melun, Josselin a knight
> > of Hugh capet and King Robert.
> > His son Herve, c. 1030, Vicompte.
> > His son Urison the First, Vicompte.
> > His son Guillaume 'the carpenter', Vicompte.
> > His son Urison the Second, c. 1138, Vicompte.
> >
> > After this the descent goes into detail with three sons of
> > the above noted, Adam the First, Josselin the Second and Gilles,
> > and so on.
> >
> > In the several pages dedicated to this family there is no mention
> > of any contact with England before the early 1200s. The Melun
> > armorials which began in the 1200s show a cluster of several circles on
> > the
> > lower half of the shield, with nothing on the top half. There is no use
> > of
> > the name
> > 'Carpenter' after the first William. A William the Second doesn't
> > appear
> > until the early 1200s.
> > This is an important aristocratic family in medieval France and
> > extremely
> > well
> > accounted for by Ansleme. All the marriage of later descendants are
> > noted
> > and the Melun arms joined or quartered with theirs.
> >
> > ______________________________
> >
> >
> > Subject:
> > [CARPENTER] in all fairness
> > Date:
> > Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:54:55 -0500
> > From:
> > "carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > To:
> > CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >
> >
> >
> > In all fairness I should note that the father of William 'the carpenter'
> > DeMelun, Urison the First, was active in Cambray and the brother
> > of WIlliam had interests in a castle there.
> > BC
> >
> > ______________________________
> >
> >
> > Subject:
> > [CARPENTER] Anselme
> > Date:
> > Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:33:20 -0500
> > From:
> > "carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > To:
> > CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Spell it Anselme.
> > BC
> >
Subject:
[CARPENTER] Carpenter Museum
Dear Julianne,
The Rehoboth Antiquarian Society now includes the Carpenter Museum.
David Pemmerl is the editor for the Rehoboth Antiquarian Society. He
would be able to answer your questions. His E-Mail address is:
DPemmerl(a)aol.com
I would encourage every one to help support this Society. They not only
have antiques and papers of early Rehoboth, but material specifically
regarding Carpenters in Rehoboth.
I am sending a copy of this message to him and the Carpenter Roots Forum
(hundreds of members).
Sincerely,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Date:
Tue, 20 Mar 2001 06:17:38 -0800
From:
Fishell <jfishell(a)vcnet.com>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
I noticed on John R. Carpenter's website that there is a Carpenter
museum in Rehoboth, MA. Can anyone tell me what they have there? My
parents are headed that way this spring and since my Dad has been
doing our genealogy with me, I know he'll be interested.
Julianne Fishell
--
Mike &/or Juliannne Fishell
jfishell(a)vcnet.com
Hello, I am a newbie :-)
I apologize, but I cant recall if I have posted my information. Please
forgive me if this repeats. I seek family of Alice Annie Carpenter born
March 20, 1859 in Decatur County IL. She married John Henry Alley of
Mercer MO. Her father is said to be William Harrison Carpenter born ca
1825 in NY, m. Anna A. Ship born ca 1834 NY. I have possibly identified
two of Alice's siblings of which I think there were 7. One is Theodore
Walter Carpenter born in Linn County IA and the other Lecie Luella
Carpenter born in decatur County IL, married Alec McHargue (McHurgue?).
Any leads at all would be a great help.
Thanks,
-Kim Hopkins
>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:46:45
>To: Fishell <jfishell(a)vcnet.com>
>From: Linda Hannah <Jamila(a)thuntek.net>
>Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] Carpenter Museum
>
>Hi Juliann and all Carpenter researchers,
>
> I visited the museum about three years ago! It is a tiny place built in
the barn style with the back level opening out to another barn building. It
is in the center of old Rehoboth Village in what looks like a residental
section. You can get directions from the Blanding Library or the crossroads
of "new" town at the hiway from East Providence (where the old Rehoboth
graveyard is, across from the Newman Congregational Church on the N-S
hiway). The musem in old Rehoboth Village is also behind the colonial style
Congregational church. I have pictures and all but I've never gotten them
up on a website as I don't have one yet.
>
> The museum is only open on Sunday from 2-4. So go to the library on
Saturday. They closed at 4 pm on Saturday and are not open on Sunday. There
is a little room upstairs devoted to Rehoboth colonial genealogy. Not just
the Carpenters.
>
> The museum is named after the Elsie and Winsor Carpenter family across
the street who donated the land, not necessarily the colonial Carpenters.
It is a museum built to house all the donated colonial period antiques owned
by various families. The right room is a replica of a colonial
kitchen/family room. Take a flash and take a picture of the Grandfather
Clock in this room as it was owned by a Carpenter family in Rehoboth. The
left room is a more 1850ish style room with mahogany Sheradan (I think)
style dining room furniture.
>
> Behind these two rooms is a gallery room with pictures and portraits,
furniture and other antiques. Behind the gallery is the office where you can
do genealogy. They have several Carpenter Memorial and other books. I bought
two small books there and a line drawing of old Rehoboth. The books are
"Rehoboth Through the Years". It is a chronalogical history of the town with
pictures! In hardback. Only $12. The other is a paperback called "Images of
Americal Rehoboth, Swansea, and Dighton". $16.99. Mostly a pictorial
history of these three town.
>
>Out back is the barn which they were going to put air conditioning in so
they could display the Indian artifacts they had collected along with farm
implements. It is probably done by now. I wish they were open more often but
it is run by volunteers.
>
>David Pemmeral is/was the director of the museum. His email is
<DPemmerl(a)aol.com> But he has never answered me. You will have more luck
with the secretary, Paula Muggleton, Carpenter Museum, Rehoboth Antiquarian
Society, Box 2, Rehoboth, MA 02769 (508-252-3031) You might call her and
see if the hours have changed. Let her know you are coming. A delightful and
informative person.
>
>If you go to the Rehoboth cemetery in East Providence be warned. I looked
all over to find the Daniel Carpenter grave with the Carpenter coat of arms.
Couldn't find it! Now I'll have to go back as it is just inside the front
entrance gate!! Our Wm # 16 grave is marked with an old slab that just says
"W.C." it is half way buried in the ground. The cemetery runs N and S. so it
is sometimes hard to get pictures. Take some tin foil for someone to hold to
reflect the sunlight onto the stones. Most of the Carpenters are about half
way down on the right at you come into the front gate. We were there on a
Saturday so no one was at the Newman church across the street. It you get
there on a Friday then you can get a map of all the graves. Rehoboth Village
is about 15 miles east of East Prov. but it seems like 30!
>
>I hope this helps you and your Dad and anyone else planning a trip to Rehoboth!
>in Carpenter Loyalty, Linda
>
>At 06:17 AM 3/20/01 -0800, you wrote:
>>I noticed on John R. Carpenter's website that there is a Carpenter
>>museum in Rehoboth, MA. Can anyone tell me what they have there? My
>>parents are headed that way this spring and since my Dad has been
>>doing our genealogy with me, I know he'll be interested.
>>
>>Julianne Fishell
>>--
>>Mike &/or Juliannne Fishell
>>jfishell(a)vcnet.com
>>
>>
>>
>
Hello JRC:
Excuse me if this is a repeat from some time ago--I have a vague
recollection of asking, but do not find the info--but do you have any
information on the family or descendants of Robert Carpenter ABC's #869?
Robin
A the conclusion of Father Ansleme' account of
of William 'the carpenter' DeMelun (vol. 5, p. 221) he says that
"de race royale & cousin de Hugues de France, compte de Vermandois,
frere du roi Philippe l."
The jist of this is that William, was the cousin of Hugh the Grand who
was the brother
of King Philip of France, the implication being that William
was the grandson of Hugh Capet, King of France,
the first of the Capetian kings of France.
Where did the notion that these people were Normans come from? Wow.
As I stated William the First had only one son. He certainly didn't
have a son William because William the Second DeMelun appears
in the 1200s. This is a definitive end of the DeMelun-English Carpenter
discussion. Theory disproved 3/21/ 2001. 2:15 in the afternoon, Nara, Japan.
Thank you all ladies and gentlemen!
Bruce E. Carpenter
The first Count of Vexin, according to Pere Anselme was a Nibelong the
Second in 879.
The descent from Charles Martel's brother Childebrand the First is thus:
1 Childebrand the First, Duke
2 Nebelong, Count de Matrie, c. 796
3 Childebrand the Second, Count of Artun
4 Eccard, Count of Artun, c. 827
5 Nebelong the Second, Count of Vexin, c. 879
6 various modern scholars place Raoul de Gouy next.
7 Gautier the First, Count of Vexin
8 Gautier the Second, Count of Vexin
etc.
BC
Dear Bruce E.,
Is it possible to get a photo copy of the Melun Family as described in
volume 5 which has an extensive genealogy and history of the Melun
family?
I would be more than happy to send a check to cover costs.
I am not surprised to hear nothing about the youngest son of William
"the carpenter" De Melun in an "official" history. He fought against
the French Crown and was an outcast.
I have tried to get a copy of the Pere Anselme books for some time. My
resources (and limits on my costs) did not allow me to secure a copy.
Anselme, Père: Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la Maison de
France. Paris, 1967; Éditions du Palais-Royal.[original edition 1726-33;
reprinted 1868-90 and continued for the 19th century by Pol Potier de
Courcy].
Subject:
[CARPENTER] MELUN
Date:
Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:43:42 -0500
From:
"carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
I now have the ten odd volumes of the great
French genealogist Pere Amslem or Father Anslem of the 18th century.
In volume 5 is an extensive genealogy and history of the Melun family.
William 'the carpenter' DeMelun and his descendants and fully accounted
for.
Not only are their names and marriages noted, but also thier activities.
Indeed the Melun family seems to have been an important aristocratic
lineage in France with important descendants into the 16th century.
The line began with Vicompte de Melun, Josselin a knight
of Hugh capet and King Robert.
His son Herve, c. 1030, Vicompte.
His son Urison the First, Vicompte.
His son Guillaume 'the carpenter', Vicompte.
His son Urison the Second, c. 1138, Vicompte.
After this the descent goes into detail with three sons of
the above noted, Adam the First, Josselin the Second and Gilles,
and so on.
In the several pages dedicated to this family there is no mention
of any contact with England before the early 1200s. The Melun
armorials which began in the 1200s show a cluster of several circles on
the
lower half of the shield, with nothing on the top half. There is no use
of
the name
'Carpenter' after the first William. A William the Second doesn't
appear
until the early 1200s.
This is an important aristocratic family in medieval France and
extremely
well
accounted for by Ansleme. All the marriage of later descendants are
noted
and the Melun arms joined or quartered with theirs.
______________________________
Subject:
[CARPENTER] in all fairness
Date:
Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:54:55 -0500
From:
"carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
In all fairness I should note that the father of William 'the carpenter'
DeMelun, Urison the First, was active in Cambray and the brother
of WIlliam had interests in a castle there.
BC
______________________________
Subject:
[CARPENTER] Anselme
Date:
Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:33:20 -0500
From:
"carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Spell it Anselme.
BC
I now have the ten odd volumes of the great
French genealogist Pere Anselme or Father Anselm of the 18th century.
In volume 5 is an extensive genealogy and history of the Melun family.
William 'the carpenter' DeMelun and his descendants and fully accounted for.
Not only are their names and marriages noted, but also thier activities.
Indeed the Melun family seems to have been an important aristocratic
lineage in France with important descendants into the 16th century.
The line began with Vicompte de Melun, Josselin a knight
of Hugh capet and King Robert.
His son Herve, c. 1030, Vicompte.
His son Urison the First, Vicompte.
His son Guillaume 'the carpenter', Vicompte.
His son Urison the Second, c. 1138, Vicompte.
After this the descent goes into detail with three sons of
the above noted, Adam the First, Josselin the Second and Gilles,
and so on.
In the several pages dedicated to this family there is no mention
of any contact with England before the early 1200s. The Melun
armorials which began in the 1200s show a cluster of several circles on the
lower half of the shield, with nothing on the top half. There is no use of
the name
'Carpenter' after the first William. A William the Second doesn't appear
until the early 1200s.
This is an important aristocratic family in medieval France and extremely
well
accounted for by Anselme. All the marriage of later descendants are noted
and the Melun arms joined or quartered with theirs.
BC
In all fairness I should note that the father of William 'the carpenter'
DeMelun, Urison the First, was active in Cambray and the brother
of WIlliam had interests in a castle there.
BC
I now have the ten odd volumes of the great
French genealogist Pere Amslem or Father Anslem of the 18th century.
In volume 5 is an extensive genealogy and history of the Melun family.
William 'the carpenter' DeMelun and his descendants and fully accounted for.
Not only are their names and marriages noted, but also thier activities.
Indeed the Melun family seems to have been an important aristocratic
lineage in France with important descendants into the 16th century.
The line began with Vicompte de Melun, Josselin a knight
of Hugh capet and King Robert.
His son Herve, c. 1030, Vicompte.
His son Urison the First, Vicompte.
His son Guillaume 'the carpenter', Vicompte.
His son Urison the Second, c. 1138, Vicompte.
After this the descent goes into detail with three sons of
the above noted, Adam the First, Josselin the Second and Gilles,
and so on.
In the several pages dedicated to this family there is no mention
of any contact with England before the early 1200s. The Melun
armorials which began in the 1200s show a cluster of several circles on the
lower half of the shield, with nothing on the top half. There is no use of
the name
'Carpenter' after the first William. A William the Second doesn't appear
until the early 1200s.
This is an important aristocratic family in medieval France and extremely
well
accounted for by Ansleme. All the marriage of later descendants are noted
and the Melun arms joined or quartered with theirs.
Does anyone know how to get SCRNCAM so I can get into some files I need?
Or I had 16042 that I got off of Ancestry.com and have erased it and
need it to get to some files. How do I get it back? I don't remember
what name I was looking for. Also how do I get ACCWIZ or ARRORD 32,
of atmfm of cb32 or cchat. Carolyn Nelson
When looking further uncle Benajahs name came up in the George Washington
Papers now being published by the University of Virginia. There were two
other Carpenters
mentioned in the index. One a Richard.
BC
I typed in my distant uncle Benajah Carpenter's name on the excellent
googles serach engine site.
Uncle Benajah was an artillery officer in the Revolution. His name came up
with the great news his cap
is still extant in a museum in New York City. He was killed in the Battle of
Brooklyn. Makes my day.
Bruce Carpenter
"One of the leather caps worn by the Rhode Island Company, that which
belonged to Lieutenant Benajah Carpenter, may be seen in the museum of the
Sons of the Revolution, in Fraunces Tavern, in New York City. It is a small
black leather helmet, or cap, formed of six pieces of jacked leather sewn
together, forming a cone shape, with a small brown and red tassel at the
top. The odd-shaped front of heavy black jacked leather is decorated with a
gold painted anchor shaded with dark red, with the motto "For Our Country"
painted above the anchor, in gilt letters on a red ground. Under the anchor,
also in gilt letters on a red ground, is the Latin motto "In te, Domine,
speramus." At the base of the cap on both sides are two small brass buttons
with bone backs, having on the face of each a convex anchor. Buttons stamped
the same were worn on the jackets of brown faced with red. "
Upton Scudamore Robert Carpenter’s son Christopher was still a landholder in
1609 according to the Wiltshire Records Office Title Awards (History of
Wiltshire, vol. 8, p. 82). The land was recorded at 60 acres even a century
later. Christopher’s birth dates have been estimated at c.1531, which must
be too early. 78 is too old to be still running a sheep farm. Duel records
for the death of his father Robert are 1545 and 1576. 1576 seems more
likely. The earlier dates were probably fudged to make it seem Robert was
the son of priest Richard Carpenter. Unfortunately there is no record of
Richard having any sons according to Oxford University. He died about 1503.
The names of Robert Carpenters sons tell another story. They are William,
Thomas, John, Ambrose and Christopher. William is the likely name for Robert
’s father. Thomas and John should be names of other important male
ancestors. In the historical record such a family group existed in nearby
Reading and Caversham from the middle 1400s to the early 1500s. William
Carpenter of Caversham was a sheep farmer. His father was a John and his a
Thomas. Names, occupations and dates point to Reading-Caversham Carpenters
as the ancestors of the Upton-Scudmore Carpenters, and too most of the other
Carpenters in the area. Priest Richard as the ancestor is laughable. This is
another case of wanting descent from the gentry Herefordshire Carpenters.
The only local Carpenter before Reading Thomas Carpenter in the historical
record, thus seen by me, is a Roger Carpenter of Newberry in the mid 1400s.
Roger was an important merchant. He was probably connected to wool and cloth
because that was the main product of the town. He is discussed in A History
of Berkshire, Vol. 4, p. 151-2. This whole Carpenter group must be the
descendants of the Kingston-on-Thames Carpenters of Surrey that had
descended from Thomas (b. 1350) the son of the Roger Carpenter the Spicer of
London. Along with Thomas Carpenter in Kingston-on-Thames was a Robert
Carpenter, a son perhaps. A mercer- cloth merchant family took in Thomas
Carpenter at the death of his father. Many of the London Carpenters made a
transition to this profession at this time. Kingston-on-Thames was right on
the main road from London to Reading and Newberry. There is an unmistakable
pattern of names, dates and profession from the Surrey Carpenters to the
Wiltshire Carpenters.
Another piece of Carpenter superstition is the descent of Providence William
Carpenter from Richard Carpenter the Oxford graduated theologian. There is
not one bit of evidence that this Richard Carpenter ever lived anywhere near
Amesbury. Again this is another attempt to tie the American Carpenters to
the gentry Carpenters of Herefordshire. Providence William’s son Joseph was
a trade carpenter by profession. If you look at the Providence family
history you will notice that Joseph was a builder of fulling mills for wool.
He could have only learned this difficult building skill from his father who
was himself keeper of extensive numbers of sheep. Providence William’s trade
is not documented. However, all indications are that he carried on trades
and traditions of livelihood practiced by all the Wiltshire Carpenters of
the 1500s. He doesn’t look at all like the descendant of an Oxford educated
theologian. Sorry.
BC
As more French towns put their ancient history on the net some
possible family history emerges. The following concerns the Pas-de-Calais
town of Gouy, one of four or so by that name. Yet this one also has a
connection
to the Carpentier family of the 1200s-1300s. The orginal abbey of the area
was supported by the family of Gouy in the 11th century. This Gouy family
is the very same, I suspect, as the Raoul de Gouy line. Various places in
northern
France were probably named after them, an ancient Frankish family.
"Dès le onzième siècle, L'abbaye de ST-JOSSE-sur-MER percevait à GOUY une
dîme qu'elle abandonna plus tard aux moines de ST-ANDRE. Ceux-ci comptent
les premiers sires de GOUY au nombre de leurs bienfaiteurs, notamment:
HUGUES, époux de Sara et EUSTACHE, époux d'Avechin, chevaliers, qui
contribuèrent à la fondation de la chapelle de Ste Madelaine, affectée dans
l'église de St-André à la sépulture de leur famille.
Après eux, on trouve VAULTIER DE CAMBERON, chevalier (1255), WISTACE et
JEHAN, ses fils aussi chevaliers (1304), COLAIS dit JETON, fils de Fils de
GUILLAUME (1364), tous qualifiés de seigneurs de GOUY dans les archives de
l'abbaye.. Il faut ensuite franchir un siècle et demi pour renouer la chaîne
interrompue de leurs successeurs et arriver à Dame CLAUDE de GOUY, épouse de
JEHAN DE SOYECOURT. Après elle, le domaine de GOUY appartint aux familles de
LICQUES, de LA HOUSSOYE,
CARPENTIER, DELHOMEL et DE FRESNOYE qui le tenaient en fief noble de la
châtellenie de BEAURAIN."
When the original Gouy lands became the property of surnamed families, the
Carpentiers were among them,
an interesting coincidence.
From
Historique du village
de GOUY-SAINT-ANDRE
et de l'abbaye de ST-ANDRE-AU-BOIS
BC
Thanks to all you wrote and gave me John L's email address. I do
appreciate it.
Are any of you planning on attending the NGS Conference In The States in
Portland, OR in May (16-19th) - If so, let me know and maybe we can get
together for a mini-visit. I have been asked to introduce some speakers
as I did the last time it was held in Portland. This Conference is
fabulous and the many, many vendors just make you drool, you want to buy
all the books you can.
Just thought I would mention it - just in case. I live in Spokane, WA so
it is a 6 hour drive for me. And thanks again for the help.
Bette
--
Bette Butcher Topp -
Please use my new email toppline(a)home.com and be sure to
visit me at - http://www.members.home.com/toppline/homepage.htm
My ahnentafel chart may be found at
http://www.members.home.com/toppline/antafl.htm
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.