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Dear Bruce,
Reply in CAPS below along with data.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
"Bruce E. Carpenter" wrote:
>
> "Henry Carpenter. Dorking Surrey b. abt 1395 to 1429
> |
> X (HENRY too young to be father)
> Bishop John Carpenter (OR of Walter?) b. abt 1399 **
>
> ** I have Bishop John Carpenter as son of John the elder (see next)."
>
> Agreed that Henry couldn't be the Bishop's father.
> Take a look at John the Younger's 1441 will. In it he mentions both
> a son John of his older brother and John Carpenter the future Bishop.
> Is it possible he repeated the tradition of naming two sons John?
YES - IT HAPPENED FOR ABOUT 3 GENERATIONS
JEAN & JEHAN ARE BOTH FORMS OF JOHN IN FRENCH
BOTH TRANSLATE TO JOHN FROM FRENCH TO ENGLISH
> Another bit of evidence to support this is the Cinque Ports
> data of the 1450s. The Carpenters all went down to Hastings
> and other nearby ports to outfit merchant ships for war against the threatened invasion from France. A John the Younger
> was one of them. By then the Town Clerk John the Younger had passed away.
> The Bishop was the Town Clerk's nephew!!!!
YES!!! BUT THE BISHOP WAS ALSO KNOWN AS JOHN THE ELDER.
OUR LINE COMES FROM HIS YOUNGER BROTHER ALSO NAMED JOHN.
SEE BELOW ...
John the elder CARPENTER-88 THE SON OF RICHARD & CHRISTINA
B. Abt 1360/1364
of London,Middlesex,England
--SPOUSE-- MRIN:19
(CARPENTER)-4674
1376
of London,Middlesex,England
--CHILDREN--
1-John the elder CARPENTER BISHOP-4678 b. abt 1399
2-Margery CARPENTER-4676
3John the younger CARPENTER-90 b. abt 1410
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:90
--------------------------------------------
Name:John the younger CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:8LC0-5H
Birth:Abt 1410 Place:of London,Middlesex,England
Chr: Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England
Marr: Spouse:(CARPENTER)-702
Marr: Spouse:
Marr: Spouse:
Death:Abt 1476/1480 Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England
Burial: Place:
Father:John the elder CARPENTER-88 Mother:(CARPENTER)-4674
>
> Sorry I can't give you chapter and verse. My notebooks
> are back in Japan.
>
> BC
This is to follow up last weeks post of G W's obit and family history. I've
been forwarded G W's marriage information by a very nice lady.. Maybe this
will sound familiar to someone. Please email me at gliving(a)ckt.net if you
wish.
Larry Shuck's "Greenbrier Co. (W) Va. Marriages 1782-1900" only shows one of
G.W. Carpenter's marriages:
G W Carpenter & Esther Coffman 20 Oct 1868; (V.1B) Groom: age 41 widower
born Greenbrier s-James Carpenter & Susan Carpenter Bride: age 23 single
born Greenbrier d-David Coffman & Rebecca Coffman
Dear Marque,
See below. The infomation seems to fit but no "Windship" mentioned.
See his second family.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Marque & Anne Carpenter wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for any information on Alice J. Windship. Grandaughter of
> John D. Carpenter and Carrie R Harvey
>
> Any Help ??
>
> Thank you
>
> Marque Carpenter
Descendants of John Draper CARPENTER-24175
First Generation
1. John Draper CARPENTER-24175 was born 12 Mar 1845 in of Guilford,
Windham, VT. He died 22 Nov 1916 in Old SoldiersHome, Bennington,
Bennington, VT.
!Not listed in the Carpenter Memorial.
Family information supplied by John L. Carpenter (3 June 1945) of
Walpole, NH in Feb. 1997.
John married (1) Martha DUNNICAN-24178 on 11 Jul 1865 in Guilford, VT.
Martha was born about 1845 in Guilford, Windham, VT. She died 26 Apr
1891 in Bennington, Bennington, VT.
NAME: Dunnican or Dunican.
John and Martha had the following children:
2 F i. Martha Lolly CARPENTER-24179 was born 13 Feb 1867 in Guilford,
VT.
NAME: Went by "Lola".
Martha married (1) Henry BISHOP-24195 on 11 Jun 1882 in Woodford, VT.
Henry was born about 1867 in VT.
3 F ii. Emma J. CARPENTER-24180 was born 1869 in Winhall, VT.
Emma married (1) Martin BROOKS-24194 on 30 Jul 1885 in VT. Martin was
born about 1869 in VT.
+ 4 M iii. John D. CARPENTER-24181 was born 1 Jan 1871 and died 1931.
5 F iv. Charolette M. CARPENTER-24182 was born 27 Oct 1872 in Winhall,
VT. She died 10 Oct 1902 in Bennington, Bennington, VT.
NAME: Charlette in one record and Charolette in another.
Charolette married (1) Melvin H. ROBINSON-24192 about 1891 in VT. Melvin
was born about 1872 in VT.
6 F v. Etta OR Eta CARPENTER-24183 was born 1876 in VT.
7 F vi. Lillian May CARPENTER-24184 was born 1878 in Troopsburg, NY.
She died 16 May 1956 in Springfield, MA.
NAME: Went by Lillie.
Lillian married (1) Hosea BROOKS-24191 on 8 Nov 1892 in Hoosick, NY.
Hosea was born about 1878.
8 F vii. Elizabeth F. CARPENTER-24185 was born Mar 1880 in NY.
9 M viii. Ernest Elijah CARPENTER-24186 was born 12 Apr 1882 in
Searsburg, VT. He died 7 Jul 1960 in Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Ernest married (1) Dorothy DORMAN-24190 on 28 Mar 1923. Dorothy was born
about 1882 in VT.
10 M ix. Erving Louis CARPENTER-24187 was born 19 Aug 1888 in
Searsburg, VT. He died 19 Sep 1969 in Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Married trice? First Emma Chabot, then Edna Lange then Emma Chabot?
Erving married (1) Emma CHABOT-24189. Emma was born about 1888 in VT.
Erving also married (2) Edna LANGE-24188. Edna was born about 1888 in
VT.
John also married (2) Caroline Rosalie HARVEY-24196, daughter of John
HARVEY-42108 and Elizabeth KENYON-42109 on 11 Apr 1892 in Hoosick, NY.
Caroline was born 28 Jul 1874 in Searsburg, VT. She died 16 Nov 1918 in
Bennington, Bennington, VT.
NAME: "Carrie" is her nickname. Middle name either Rosalie or Rosabelle.
John and Caroline had the following children:
11 F x. Ora Addie CARPENTER-24197 was born 22 Jan 1893 in Woodford,
VT. She died 1915 in Woodford, VT.
Tombstone in Woodford,VT ( VT rte #9 ) states the follwing dates: ORA
CARPENTER 1898-1915.
Ora married (1) John Lyman BUGBEE-24215 on 24 Jun 1930 in Woodford, VT.
John was born about 1893 in VT.
12 M xi. Henry Manford CARPENTER-24198 was born 4 Jul 1894 in
Woodford, VT. He died 18 May 1948 in Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Henry married (1) Ruth LORETTE-24214 on 30 Aug 1919 in Bennington,
Bennington, VT. Ruth was born about 1894 in VT.
13 F xii. Alice Belle CARPENTER-24199 was born 22 Apr 1896 in
Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Alice married (1) Douglas LAKER-24212. Douglas was born about 1896.
Alice also married (2) George QUACKENBUSH-24213. George was born about
1896.
14 F xiii. Nora Esther CARPENTER-24200 was born 13 Feb 1898 in
Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Nora married (1) Frank LORETTE-24210. Frank was born about 1898 in VT.
Nora also married (2) Lewis SPRAUGE-24211. Lewis was born about 1898 in
VT.
15 F xiv. Lila Marian CARPENTER-24201 was born 6 Jan 1900 in
Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Lila married (1) Alvin KENNEDY-24209. Alvin was born about 1900.
+ 16 M xv. Gilbert Vincent CARPENTER-24202 was born 6 Jan 1902.
17 M xvi. James Gordon CARPENTER-24203 was born 9 Dec 1904 in
Bennington, Bennington, VT.
18 F xvii. Theresa May CARPENTER-24204 was born 31 May 1906 in Ponwal,
VT. She died 27 Mar 1959 in Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Theresa May's (1959) Obituary lists her six surving Sisters as: Mrs.
Frank Lorette, of Bennington, Vt.
Mrs Allvin Kennedy, of Bennington ,Vt.
Mrs Lewis Monroe of White Creek,NY.
Mrs Douglas Laker, of White Creek, NY.
Mrs Raymond Conant, of Rutland, Vt.
Mrs Clement Tanner,Bakersfield, Vt
19 F xviii. Myrtle Rena CARPENTER-24205 was born 5 Aug 1908 in Ponwal,
VT.
20 F xix. Gertrude Elizabeth CARPENTER-24206 was born 3 Dec 1909 in
Ponwal, VT.
21 F xx. Dorothy Eva CARPENTER-24207 was born 18 Feb 1912 in Ponwal,
VT.
Second Generation
4. John D. CARPENTER-24181 was born 1 Jan 1871 in Winhall, VT. He died
1931.
!Carpenter, John D. pg 225 town birth records Winhall, Vt.
DOB Jan 1, 1871
Mother: Martha Dunican
Mothers birth place: Guilford, Vt
Mothers residence: Winhall, Vt
Father: John D. Carpenter
Fathers birthplace: Guilford, Vt
Per Town of Winhall, C.B. Williams, town clerk.
Submitted by John L. Carpenter of NH in an E-Mail dated 18 Feb. 2000.
John married (1) Charity E. BROOKS-24193, daughter of Martin
BROOKS-42110 and Lucey HARVEY-42111 on 15 Mar 1891 in White Creek, VT.
Charity was born about 1871 in VT.
They had the following children:
22 F i. Christy CARPENTER-42112 was born about Feb 1892 in VT.
Christy married (1) Nomer ALKINBURG-42120. Nomer was born about 1892.
23 M ii. Charles CARPENTER-42114 was born about 1895 in Bennington,
Bennington, VT.
24 M iii. Clarence CARPENTER-42113 was born 29 Nov 1897 in Bennington,
Bennington, VT.
Clarence married (1) Elmie SMITH-42121. Elmie was born about 1897.
25 F iv. Harriett OR Hattie CARPENTER-42115 was born about 1898 in
Bennington, Bennington, VT.
Harriett married (1) Clarence SMITH-42122. Clarence was born about 1898.
Harriett also married (2) Gogi DELMATA-42123. Gogi was born about 1898.
26 M v. Henry CARPENTER-42116 was born about 1899/1900 in Bennington,
VT.
Henry married (1) Anne GEORGE-42124. Anne was born about 1899/1900 in
VT.
27 M vi. Milton CARPENTER-42117 was born about 1902 in Bennington, VT.
Milton married (1) Lowella HOFFMAN-42125. Lowella was born about 1902.
28 M vii. Loren CARPENTER-42118 was born about 1904 in Bennington, VT.
Maybe be male.
29 F viii. Mary CARPENTER-42119 was born about 1907 in Bennington, VT.
Mary married (1) Ernest GARDENER-42126. Ernest was born about 1906.
16. Gilbert Vincent CARPENTER-24202 was born 6 Jan 1902 in Bennington,
Bennington, VT.
Gilbert married (1) Pauline LONGTIN-24208. Pauline was born about 1902
in VT.
They had the following children:
30 M i. Peter A. CARPENTER-42127 was born 30 Oct 1929 in VT.
31 ii. 2 CARPENTER-42128 was born 7 May 1927 in VT.
Unknown sex.
32 M iii. John Addison CARPENTER-42129 was born 1926 in VT. He died 15
Sep 1950 in K.I.A., IN, South Korea and was buried in Arlington Cem.,
Arlington, Arlington, VA.
John was Killed In Action during the early fighting in South Korea. His
body was later transfered to Arlington Cemetery.
Index
Name ID Generation
ALKINBURG, Nomer 22S 3
BISHOP, Henry 2S 2
BROOKS, Charity E. 4S 2
BROOKS, Hosea 7S 2
BROOKS, Martin 3S 2
BUGBEE, John Lyman 11S 2
CARPENTER, 2 31 3
CARPENTER, Alice Belle 13 2
CARPENTER, Charles 23 3
CARPENTER, Charolette M. 5 2
CARPENTER, Christy 22 3
CARPENTER, Clarence 24 3
CARPENTER, Dorothy Eva 21 2
CARPENTER, Elizabeth F. 8 2
CARPENTER, Emma J. 3 2
CARPENTER, Ernest Elijah 9 2
CARPENTER, Erving Louis 10 2
CARPENTER, Etta OR Eta 6 2
CARPENTER, Gertrude Elizabeth 20 2
CARPENTER, Gilbert Vincent 16 2
CARPENTER, Harriett OR Hattie 25 3
CARPENTER, Henry 26 3
CARPENTER, Henry Manford 12 2
CARPENTER, James Gordon 17 2
CARPENTER, John Addison 32 3
CARPENTER, John D. 4 2
CARPENTER, John Draper 1 1
CARPENTER, Lila Marian 15 2
CARPENTER, Lillian May 7 2
CARPENTER, Loren 28 3
CARPENTER, Martha Lolly 2 2
CARPENTER, Mary 29 3
CARPENTER, Milton 27 3
CARPENTER, Myrtle Rena 19 2
CARPENTER, Nora Esther 14 2
CARPENTER, Ora Addie 11 2
CARPENTER, Peter A. 30 3
CARPENTER, Theresa May 18 2
CHABOT, Emma 10S 2
DELMATA, Gogi 25S 3
DORMAN, Dorothy 9S 2
DUNNICAN, Martha 1S 1
GARDENER, Ernest 29S 3
GEORGE, Anne 26S 3
HARVEY, Caroline Rosalie 1S 1
HOFFMAN, Lowella 27S 3
KENNEDY, Alvin 15S 2
LAKER, Douglas 13S 2
LANGE, Edna 10S 2
LONGTIN, Pauline 16S 2
LORETTE, Frank 14S 2
LORETTE, Ruth 12S 2
QUACKENBUSH, George 13S 2
ROBINSON, Melvin H. 5S 2
SMITH, Clarence 25S 3
SMITH, Elmie 24S 3
SPRAUGE, Lewis 14S 2
While I was writing my to be published essay on the merchant Carpenters of
the Middle Ages, I was able to correct a number of mistakes in material
published on this forum earlier. The 1345 master of the ship St. Mary, John
Carpenter, was a merchant resident in Spain and probably Cornwall as well.
Cornwall was a popular stopping point for ships to and from Gascony, Spain
and the Mediterranean. I discovered an extremely
Interesting and long document describing a 1343 John Carpenter in
Lostwithiel Cornwall in a merchant ship salvage incident. This John
Carpenter is probably the often quoted Liskard John Carpenter who attended
Parliament in 1323. Merchants attended Parliament at that time and took an
active role in national affairs. This is not to say that I think the
medieval Carpenters were descendants of this John Carpenter in Cornwall. To
the contrary he seems one just one of various brothers or close relatives c.
1350 in London and Bristol. All of these seem to descend from a William the
spicer Carpenter, a prominent merchant in London c. 1300.
An additional merchant Carpenter of great interest is the John Carpenter
who was a long term resident of Castro Urdiales Spain in 1345. Carpenters
ship, the St. Mary, as well as his more Spanish colleagues, are named in a
document that describes, Protection, during pleasure for the subjects of
the kings kinsman, the king of Castile. (Patent Rolls, July 11, 1345).
Carpenter was of course thoroughly English, but also a merchant representing
Spanish trade interests. We can assume a commercial connection to Bristol
for this John Carpenter as well. We The 1345 date for John Carpenter places
him in the same generation as those the followed William the Spicer
Carpenter of London. This same John Carpenter seems to appear in an amusing
wreak of the sea case off the coast of Cornwall in 1343 against Edward,
duke of Cornwall. Carpenter is named as a resident of Lostwithiel and
appears with a large group of fellow accused that include the Bishop of
Exeter, three different church priors, church deans, knights and sundry
others. A good deal of wine was the cargo of the wreaked ship (Patent,
February 4, 1343). We can assume it was Gascon wine. My reading of the
document suggests that the many listed in the case had commercial interests
in the ship, while the Duke of Cornwall had legal rights to any wreaks in
his domain. This Cornwall John Carpenter is of further interest due a John
Carpenter of the next town Leskard, who was a member of Parliament in 1323.
This was a moment in English mercantile history when many merchants took an
active role in government under King Edward. Amusingly in the 1700s, a later
descendant of the merchant Carpenters, a Lord George Carpenter (see
Dictionary of National Biography, ?????), would establish a genealogical
pedigree from this parliament member John Carpenter. Lord George was of
course desperate for gentry origins for himself and doubtlessly seized upon
Leskard John Carpenter. A discovery that John Carpenter was a merchant from
a minor merchant dynasty in London and Bristol might have disappointed him.
Bruce Carpenter
I just obtained info on The Latting family decedents & ancestors of Josiah Latting of Long Island,NY copies are avail
John L. Carpenter
Walpole,NH
Searching for more
Decedents of William Carpenter of Providence,RI
http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/John-L-Carpenter/index.htnl
Providence, RI
----- Original Message -----
From: Marque & Anne Carpenter <magicdgn(a)mindspring.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 8:07 AM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Carpenter CD
> I know this was posted before but, I forgot to save it. Can anyone tell me
> what Familytree Maker CD the Carpenter Memorial is on.
>
> Thank you
> CD
> # 117 New England Families,#1 ,1600-1800's
John L. Carpenter
Walpole,NH
Searching for more
Descendants of William Carpenter of Providence,RI
http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/John-L-Carpenter/index.htnl
Providence, RI
Hi:
I'm new to this list.
Seeking parents and siblings of Benjamin Carpenter who md Olive. He was
born abt 1742, Ontario Co., NY and died after 1829 at Stillwater,
Livingston, NY.
They had a son Benjamin b abt 1762 and he md abt 1783 to Elizabeth King
b abt 1764 Onandaga Co., NY, She died abt 1832 a Stillwater. Her father
was Simeon King.
Thanks for any info.
Joyce Hathaway
Hello all,
I am looking for any information on Alice J. Windship. Grandaughter of
John D. Carpenter and Carrie R Harvey
Any Help ??
Thank you
Marque Carpenter
> Preserving and Labeling Fabric Heirlooms
>
> Some of our family heirlooms come in the form of textiles.
> Clothing, quilts, embroidery, tatting, needlework,
> samplers, and other items are treasures to be passed from
> generation to generation, and they are significant
> genealogical resources. It is important to preserve these
> items for posterity. Wrap them in acid-free tissue paper
> and store them in acid-free, archival safe boxes. Never
> store them in ordinary dry cleaner's bags as these can give
> off harmful gases that can discolor and damage the fabric.
> (Some dry cleaners provide special archival storage
> materials). To label these items for family history, use
> acid-free paper tags and permanent pencils made for the
> purpose. Write the tag and sew it to the fabric item. Never
> use pins as these can rust.
>
> - George G. Morgan
>
>
>
>
>
Hi, Suzanne,
You have a Carpenter reunion up there in Grand Rapids Dutch country?
That's interesting. If you have been doing this for 85 years in Michigan,
maybe we can connect. Are there any folks in your line(s) that are from
down around Kalamazoo, and particularly Decatur, Lawton, Lawrence, Paw Paw,
and that general area? My GGgrandfather, James CARPENTER, took his family
west from De Ruyter, Madison County, NY, in the 1860s or so. Frank
(Francis Adelbert), the eldest son, stayed in Decatur, and his uncle Samuel
D. CARPENTER, was there, too. Frank had a large family there, so there
should be a lot of his descendants still in MI. James continued west to MN
and SD. Osmer Harold CARPENTER, my Ggrandfather, settled in the Arlington,
SD, area, where my father, Osmer Sidney CARPENTER grew up. Do you see
anything familiar? One of the Decatur folks I did meet when I was a boy.
Her name was Orrie (Carpenter) Clark.
George
---
George R. Carpenter
Pinckney, Michigan
carpgl(a)ismi.net
----------
> Our 85th Carpenter reunion is August 19th,
> and I know all the relatives will enjoy the new information,
> Regards, Suzanne R, Carpenter
> Comstock Park, Michigan 49321
Dear John,
That huge file is going to take me some time to sift through. I have very
quickly looked through it and know definitely that ,#103 Barnard Carpenter,
is the younger brother of our Timothy.
A few more tidbits that I gleaned from a 1918 newspaper article that Tim's
youngest daughter wrote about the family history: Timothy's half-sister, Betsy
visited the family in 1883, so she was still alive then. Also, Tim's
parents were English & Scotch. Tim's wife's family (Wm.Miller- Rev.War
pension file #S11085) was from Orange Co. NY and were of Irish & Dutch
descent.
I'm very grateful for your help. Our 85th Carpenter reunion is August 19th,
and I know all the relatives will enjoy the new information,
Regards, Suzanne R, Carpenter
Comstock Park, Michigan 49321
To the Carpenter list,
First, may I say that this list has the most intelligent exchange of
information of ANY LIST that I am on. None of those one-word replies to
4-word queries. I am enjoying reading about the 1300-1400's Carpenters.
I am searching for the parentage & siblings of Timothy Carpenter,b.1796 NY
Father: Benjamin Carpenter "...of Norwich NY" (not known which NY Norwich)
son: Timothy Carpenter b. 25 July,1796 Cayuga Co. NY,md. to Lydia Miller,
dau of Wm. Miller & Lydia Tuttle, on 27 Oct.,1822 in NY
Tim died 17 Feb.,1870 in Plainfield twp. Kent Co.MI
Had 10 adult children: the first 8 born in New York
**Exania Ruth b.13 Sept.,1823(md. Charles Harvey Butler in NY)
Margaret E. b.3 Dec.1825 (md.Wm.Thompson in NY)
**Jane Louisa b.9 Dec.,1827 (md. 1st,George W.Butler in NY? or MI)
Wm. Franklin b.14 March,1830 (md 1st,Amanda Hoisington in MI)
*Benjamin Timothy b.17 June,1832 Chautauqua Co.NY (md.Mary L.Carr
in MI
David G. b.1 Feb.,1835 (md.Mila D. Sperry in MI)
Lorenzo Alonzo b.19 July,1837 (md.Elizabeth McLean in MI)
Nancy M. b.7 Dec.,1839 (md.Charles Hunter in MI)
Amanda W. b.23 Jan.,1845 (md. Dennis Lewis in MI)
Reliance A. b. 4 Aug.,1850 (md. Henry Butler in MI)
(** spouses arebrothers) (* My husbands direct line)
Tim's children born in several NY counties, including Cayuga? & Chautauqua
Timothy's know siblings:
(1) Barnard Carpenter b.1812 NY, died 1889 in Genesee Co.MI
md. to Velaria Elizabeth Felt in NY in 1840
(2) a "....half-sister,Betsy..." (newspaper article reference) she
came to Tim's surprise 1868 birthday
(3) a brother,name not known: he had a son named Caleb, for whom Tim's
son, William Franklin, worked for in Chicago in about 1845. It
is known that Barnard DID NOT have a son named Caleb, so this
implies at least a third male sibling in this family besides Tim
and Barnard.
Any help with my husband's line would be greatly appreciated
Suzanne R. Carpenter
P.S. I have a photo of Tim, plus a whole Carpenter album of 1850-60's pictures
from NY,not identified, but with similar facial looks, which I will share.
Dear Bruce,
Thanks for the additional data!
Based on the data you have sent ... The two families look like this?
1) Roger Carpenter b. abt 1310 to 1330 d. 1349
| |
Thomas b. 1349 Walter b. abt 1325 to 1359 (1342?)
| | |
| | ?
| | Bishop John Carpenter b. abt 1399
| |
| |-------|
|?--------------------->?
| Richard of Mochelden b. abt 1360 to 1389
|
Robert b. abt 1370 to 1395
*******************
2) John Carpenter, the elder? B. abt 1330 to 1364 ***
?(COULD THESE 2 JOHNS BE THE SAME PERSON???)
|
John Carpenter, Dorking Surrey b. abt 1350 to 1384
|
?
Henry Carpenter. Dorking Surrey b. abt 1395 to 1429
|
X (HENRY too young to be father)
Bishop John Carpenter (OR of Walter?) b. abt 1399 **
** I have Bishop John Carpenter as son of John the elder (see next).
*** This must be ...
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:88
-------------------------------------------------
Name:John the elder CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:8MJ2-7P
Birth:Abt 1360/1364 Place:of London,Middlesex,England
Chr: Place:
Marr:Bef 1399 Spouse:(CARPENTER)-4674
Death: Place:
Burial: Place:
Father:Richard CARPENTER-86 Mother:Christina-87
Notes -------------------------------------------------
!JOHN SENIOR was the eldest brother of JOHN (the younger) who was the
noted Town Clerk of London. AF has birth dates reversed 1364
instead of 1372.
John, the Elder of London, owned over 300 houses in London and had a
fish pond on his roof. Per Raymond Carpenter, the genealogist, who
references the "fish pond" in various wills. John, the elder inherited
the houses from his younger
brother. He took over the family business from his father as the eldest
child in 1395.
end partial notes
***********************
1) IF SO, we know that Roger Carpenter was a cousin to William of
London, son of John. William Carpenter of London died in 1409. His birth
year is estimated at 1340. This probably means a parallel Carpenter
line in the London area?
Known infant son Thomas, b. 1349 (London Letter Bks)
Known married daughter in 1349; many other siblings supposed.
Per a previous E-MAIL of yours we have ...
(START PARTIAL MESSAGE)
"... Finally after copious real estate entries the demise of Roger
Carpenter is recorded for 1349.
"Wednesday before the Nativity of the Lord [25 Dec.], 23 Edward III.
[A.D. 1349], the guradianship of Thomas, son of Rodger le Carpenter,
"spicer", commited to Thomas de Brandone, mercer, by Walter Turk, Mayor,
Richard Lacer, Rodger de Depham, Aldermen, and Thomas de Waldene, the
Chamberlain, by assent of William de Chalk and Agnes his wife, the aunt
and nearest friend of the said Thomas, together with the sum of L.45,
and rents of the
value of 105s. 9 d., to hold in trust for the said infant, who is not
to marry without the permission of the Mayor and Aldermen. Surities,
viz., Richard Vyncent, Rector of the Church of St. Benedict de
Shorhogge, who holds a lay fee in the parish of St. Augustine, near St.
Paul's gate, and Adam Fraunceys, mercer." (Letter-Books, F., p. 200)
The interesting revelation here is the identification of Rodger's
sister, Agnes Carpenter. Agnes had appeared as one of the children of
property rich John Carpenter in the early 1300s. Agnes inherited the
rights to land that her father had held from Queen Philippa. John
Carpenter's manor holdings were so geographically diverse and import
that the litigation took
a number of years. John Carpenter was knighted. His death took place in
1339 and his main manor seemed to be just outside London in
Berkhamstead, although he possessed manorial holdings in Oxford,
Wiltshire and other locations. Fortunately the original documents
identify his father as also a John le Carpenter, who must have lived in
the late 1200s. It is tempting to
equate this knighted John Carpenter with the John that appeared with
Edward Charpenter, his son Robert and three other Carpenters in the 1305
ship salvage document. Likewise it is tempting to assign the ancestor of
many of these Carpenters to a Jean le Carpenter, who was an officially
designated wool exporter in 1273. At the least, the connections that are
beginning to emerge between these individuals point to an enormous
merchant-trading family. In my next message I will return again to the
theme
of wine and the interesting evidence for Rodger Carpenter's involvement
in it."
E-MAIL: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter"
(END PARTIAL MESSAGE)
With this information we can surmise that Roger was born NOT about 1330
or born between 1310 to 1330 to have died in 1349 with a daughter that
married.
Assuming the daughter is in the 15 to 20 year range in 1349. Her birth
then would be about 1329 to 1334. This means Roger Carpenter would have
had to be born about 1305 to 1314 or earlier.
These assumptions modifies the first chart to ...
John le Carpenter b. abt 1205 to 1235
|(ARE THE 2 JOHNS THE SAME PERSON?)
John Carpenter b. abt 1235 to 1255 d. 1339
| | (Jean or Jehan in French??)
| |
| Agnes b. abt 1275 to 1305 (she inherited)
|
1) Roger or Rodger Carpenter b. abt 1280 to 1310 d. 1349
| | |
| Daughter m by 1349 |
| (b. abt 1329 to 1334) |
| |
Thomas b. 1349 Walter b. abt 1325 to 1347 (1342?)
| | |
| | X (AGE TOO GREAT)
| | Bishop John Carpenter b. abt 1399
| |
| |-------|(HIGHER PROBABILITY AS SON)
|?--------------------->?
| Richard of Mochelden b. abt 1360 to 1389
|
|----------Thomas Carpenter b. abt 1380 in Suffolk
| |
Robert b. abt 1370 to 1395 |
| Thomas b. abt 1410
Richard b. abt 1405 to 1429 |
John b. abt 1450 of Caversham d. 1544
|
William b. abt 1480
|
John b. abt 1505
This makes this Carpenter line very interesting!
Comments?
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
*********************************************************
>> "Bruce E. Carpenter" wrote:
> >
> > Roger Carpenter d. 1349
> > Known infant son Thomas, b. 1349 (London Letter Bks)
> > Known married daughter in 1349; many other siblings supposed
> >
> > Thomas Carpenter, Tax collector for Kingston-on-Thames, 1382 (Fine Rolls)
> > Thomas should be Rogers son b. 1349
> > Robert Carpenter, Clerk, Kingston-on-Thames (Surrey), 1407 (Close Rolls)
> > Robert should be son of Thomas
> >
> > Walter Carpenter, Tax Collector for Bath, 1380, (Fine Rolls)
> > Provable merchant of wealth in Bristol
> > Probable son or brother of Thomas
> > Richard Carpenter of Mochelden, 1410, served House of Lancaster
> > Probable son of Walter or Thomas
> >
> > John Carpenter, Dorking Surrey, 1405 (Close Rolls)
> > Son of John the Elder?
> > Henry Carpenter, Dorking Surrey, 1450 (Patent Rolls)
> > Probable son of John
> > Provable merchant of wealth with connections to Bristol and Merchant Venturers
> > The discovery that John Carpenter lived in Dorking prior to the merchant
> > Henry Carpenter is a small but significant addition. Must be a generational
> > connection. Henry should be John's son.
> > The Surrey Carpenters are the great overlooked Carpenter group in this period.
> > The London and Surrey merchants had various legal agreements which separated their money interests. You could sell in Surrey but not in London.
> > This might explain the Bristol ties of Henry.
> > It is my belief that when the Carpenters began their gentry stage
> > in Gloucestershire and Herefordshire they did so from Surrey.
> > Bishop John Carpenter should be a son of either Henry or Walter.
> > BC
Roger Carpenter d. 1349
Known infant son Thomas, b. 1349 (London Letter Bks)
Known married daughter in 1349; many other siblings supposed
Thomas Carpenter, Tax collector for Kingston-on-Thames, 1382 (Fine Rolls)
Thomas should be Rogers son b. 1349
Robert Carpenter, Clerk, Kingston-on-Thames (Surrey), 1407 (Close Rolls)
Robert should be son of Thomas
Walter Carpenter, Tax Collector for Bath, 1380, (Fine Rolls)
Provable merchant of wealth in Bristol
Probable son or brother of Thomas
Richard Carpenter of Mochelden, 1410, served House of Lancaster
Probable son of Walter or Thomas
John Carpenter, Dorking Surrey, 1405 (Close Rolls)
Son of John the Elder?
Henry Carpenter, Dorking Surrey, 1450 (Patent Rolls)
Probable son of John
Provable merchant of wealth with connections to Bristol and Merchant
Venturers
The discovery that John Carpenter lived in Dorking prior to the merchant
Henry Carpenter is a small but significant addition. Must be a generational
connection. Henry should be John's son.
The Surrey Carpenters are the great overlooked Carpenter group in this
period.
The London and Surrey merchants had various legal agreements which
separated their money interests. You could sell in Surrey but not in London.
This might explain the Bristol ties of Henry.
It is my belief that when the Carpenters began their gentry stage
in Gloucestershire and Herefordshire they did so from Surrey.
Bishop John Carpenter should be a son of either Henry or Walter.
BC
Dear Bruce,
It is a shame she does not mention her maiden name or any relatives.
Christina is the female name of Christian. It's history is from the
following web page:
http://www.behindthename.com/c.html
CHRISTIAN (m) "Christian" (Latin). This name was borne by Hans Christian
Andersen, a Danish author of such fairy tales as 'The Ugly Duckling' and
'The Emperor's New Clothes'.
CHRISTIANA (f) Feminine form of CHRISTIAN
CHRISTIANNE (f) Feminine form of CHRISTIAN
CHRISTINA (f) "Christian" (Latin). This was the name of a Swedish queen
of the 17th century who was interested in the arts and philosophy. She
gave up her crown to become a Roman Catholic.
CHRISTINE (f) French and English form of CHRISTINA
CHRISTY (f) Pet form of CHRISTINE
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
"Bruce E. Carpenter" wrote:
>
> A look at London Kathrine Carpenter's will in Brewer and
> reproduced in Amos Carpenter reveals that there is not
> a single reference to church services or memorials for
> her parents, or any reference at all to blood relatives.
> This suggests to me that she had none in England and everyone was
> back in Zeeland. Did the Town Clerk in his merchant Draper days travel
> to Zeeland as well as many other foreign places?
>
> Another problem is his mother Christina. Isn't Christine the English
> version of the name. Can someone check this? From Katherine's will we know
> that Richard, Christina and "all the brothers, sisters, and relations"
> (Brewer p. 159)
> were buried in St Martin Outwich. "Relations" might have meant those by
> marriage.
> Threadneedle St. where the church was located was the home of the foreign
> cloth makers of the city.
>
> BC
Dear Bruce,
It is a shame she does not mention her maiden name or any relatives.
Christina is the female name of Christian. It's history is from the
following web page:
http://www.behindthename.com/c.html
CHRISTIAN (m) "Christian" (Latin). This name was borne by Hans Christian
Andersen, a Danish author of such fairy tales as 'The Ugly Duckling' and
'The Emperor's New Clothes'.
CHRISTIANA (f) Feminine form of CHRISTIAN
CHRISTIANNE (f) Feminine form of CHRISTIAN
CHRISTINA (f) "Christian" (Latin). This was the name of a Swedish queen
of the 17th century who was interested in the arts and philosophy. She
gave up her crown to become a Roman Catholic.
CHRISTINE (f) French and English form of CHRISTINA
CHRISTY (f) Pet form of CHRISTINE
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
"Bruce E. Carpenter" wrote:
>
> A look at London Kathrine Carpenter's will in Brewer and
> reproduced in Amos Carpenter reveals that there is not
> a single reference to church services or memorials for
> her parents, or any reference at all to blood relatives.
> This suggests to me that she had none in England and everyone was
> back in Zeeland. Did the Town Clerk in his merchant Draper days travel
> to Zeeland as well as many other foreign places?
>
> Another problem is his mother Christina. Isn't Christine the English
> version of the name. Can someone check this? From Katherine's will we know
> that Richard, Christina and "all the brothers, sisters, and relations"
> (Brewer p. 159)
> were buried in St Martin Outwich. "Relations" might have meant those by
> marriage.
> Threadneedle St. where the church was located was the home of the foreign
> cloth makers of the city.
>
> BC
Dear Phoebe,
You have set such a bright example in sharing on the Carpenter Forum,
that I am a lesser light.
BTW - LOLs on the YLLTHCEWC! :)
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
MzCortez(a)aol.com wrote:
>
> Thanks, John and Bruce,
> You are both so generous to share with us,
>
> Your Long legged, trim hipped, cross eyed, webtoed Carpenter cousin from Oregon!
RE: Surnames What's in a Name?
I found my name but it was wrong!
Carpenters come from many countries. Many Carpenters in America come
from English/French ancestry. However, many also come from the
Zimmerman Families in Germany and Switzterland.
Below is some history on the name CARPENTER.
Carpenter - Car-pen-ter (kar' pen tar), noun. 1) a person who builds
or repairs wooden structures, as houses, scaffolds, or shelving. - v.i.
2) to do a carpenter's work. ...
[1275-1325; ME < AF < LL carpentarius wainwright, equiv. to L
carpent(um) two wheeled carriage ( < Celt; cf. OIr carpad chariot) +
arius - ARY; see ER2] FROM: "Webster's New Universal Unabridged
Dictionary" 1996 by Barnes & Noble Books.
Carpenter - Woodwright in old England. Such as a wood wright (wood
worker). See also Wain Wright (a wooden wagon maker)
Carpenter - From the French Norman Carpentier (le Carpentier, le
Charpentier) a worker of wood.
Carpenter - Carpentier and Charpentier in French. A worker in wood.
Carpenter - Zimmerman in German. A worker in wood.
Carpenter - Carpenterio in Spainsh. A worker in wood from the English
word Carpenter.
Carpenter - French Sur-names 944 D46d - CARPENTIER ++, Forme
norm.-picarde de Charpentier; var. du Sud-Ouest et roussillonnase
Carpentier. Avecart. Le Carpentier.
LETTER: Per Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist, The
Carpenter and Related Family Association: "My British Genealogy of the
New England English Carpenter Family has descent due to our three
cross-crosslets Coat of Arms from Viscount William (Carpenter surname)
de Melune, a Norman Knight in the First Crusade, 1098 A.D., at the siege
of Antioch, Syria. He was "nicknamed, Carpenter, from the weighty
strokes of his BATTLE AXE" in battle because the axe and great strength
were associated with the carpenter's trade. This family of Melun,
France.
!BOOK: Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - by Gibbons vol. 4, page
208: "Earl of Melun slaughtered his opponents with a large axe, thus
earning himself the nickname of "The Carpenter."
!BOOK: Grand Dictionaire Universel DU XIX Siecle Paris 1873 Tome 10:
(page 1488)
"Guillaume I. du nom, viscount de Melun, fut surnomme Charpentier, a
cause u'il ne se trouvoit point d'armes qui pussent resister a l'effort
de ses oups. "La pesanteur des siennes le faisoit apprehender dans les
combats."
Guillaume I., of name, Viscount of Melun, was surnamed, Carpenter,
because no weapon (opponents weapons that is) could be found that could
resist the power his strikes. The heaviness of his (weapons) resulted in
him being feared in combats". Carpenters must of, at the time, been
among the most "well build" people... "
I hope this helps correct the error in your data base.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Carpenter CD Project
You have ...
Carpenter : At the time surnames were adopted, the average man built his
own cottage and did not require the skill
of the Carpenter, who usually was hired by those who were of some means,
and required products only a craftsman
could provide. It's an English Occupational name. Requested by Dan
Carpenter.
at ...
http://clanhuston.com/name/namea-d.htm
>
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dalebrown/Carpenter/index.htm
>
List members
The above link will take you to the descendents of Fred Edison Carpenter/
Nellie May Beeman. A GEDCOM of this family is also available if you so
desire, just drop me a line.
I went out and bought Microsoft Front Page 2000 hoping it would make things
easier. Well the long and short of it, I am unable to published to the
ftp://users.freepages.rootsweb.com with it, some sort of glitch in the
program. I haven't been able to solve. Since I still have FP 98 I use that
to publish with no problems except that some of the links are broken, and I
have to use rootsweb HTML editor to correct the links. And from what I can
see at a glance, I have a heck of a lot to do on the other pages.
The Carpenter pages seems to be error free, except for the photo of Alex
Carpenter standing in front of the statue of John Carpenter that JRC sent me
along with Tiff images of the direct line from Fred Edison to William
Carpenter. I used a thumb nail image with what I thought was a link to a
larger view. But when you click the image, instead of getting a larger view,
a download request comes up from rootsweb. Some how I apparently did
something wrong, this is the only occasion of this to any of the other
images.
There was a lot of documentation that my Niece Barbara had but the majority
of it was so bad I couldn't use it. The Carpenter pages are loaded with
images in thumb nail view with a link to larger views, but it still takes
awhile to down load.
As far as I know all of this material is new to the majority of Carpenter's
out there, and in some way I trust that it will assist someone.
Thanks again for all of the material that some of you sent, I'm sure Barbara
will get a lot good use out of it, I will be giving it to her when I return
the book to her that she brought. This is as far as I will personally take
it, as I only try to get a basic history of my collateral lines.
Right now I'm going to take a break, I've been working on this project
almost night an day since the visit from Barbara 7/7/00.
Paul
pdale(a)sprynet.com
SURNAMES
Dale/Brown Family Genealogy Album
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dalebrown/index.htm
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.