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Dear Folks,
For those looking for a place to stay in Bristol, England, may I suggest
the following!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:54:45 +0100
From: "Travel-UK" <enquiries(a)travel-uk.com>
John,
I think you are looking for Westbury on Trym? This is in the Bristol
area, which is just down the road from Wiltshire.
We have two accommodations listed for Westbury on Trym:
Westbury Park Hotel
37 Westbury Road
Westbury-on-Trym
Bristol
BS9 3AU
T: 0117 9620465
F: 0117 9628607
Mayfair Hotel The
5 Henleaze Road
Westbury-on-Trym
Bristol
BS9 4EX
T: 0117 9622008
If this is the correct town, it would be well worth your while using our
search page to search on nearby postcodes (eg BS8, BS7) as these towns
are adjacent to Westbury on Trym.
Thank you
Travel-UK
Dear Bruce,
You wrote, "Perhaps John would be nice enough to tell us who
J.H.Carpenter was or is, in detail if possible."
The following data was listed on the Carpenter Forum just a few months
ago. You probably missed it.
John R. Carpenter
Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:51:33 -0800
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
... Joseph Hatten Carpenter did extensive genealogical work in England
and France. His work is not widely known. Most of it is in the Utah
Genealogical Magazine.
The data below comes from my files.
Sincerely,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
+-¦Robert Wright CARPENTER Rev.-49477
Joseph Hatten CARPENTER-49485 ¦ ¦ 5 Jul 1831
4 Apr 1861 -----------¦ ¦Taunton,Somerset,England
Devonport,Devonshire,England ¦ MRIN:17535
--SPOUSE-- MRIN:17538 +-¦Elizabeth Link HATTEN-49480
Matilda Sophia ALDER-49487 ¦17 Feb 1837
22 Jan 1866 ¦Gravesend,Kent,England
Manti,Sanpete,UT
(There are other marriages)
--CHILDREN--
1Joseph Gerald CARPENTER-49500
2Edith Mathilda CARPENTER-49503
3Edwin Schramm CARPENTER-49505
4-Bertha CARPENTER-49507
5-Heber Eugene CARPENTER-49508
6-Nettie Elizabeth CARPENTER-49509
7-George Alvin CARPENTER-49510
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:49485
-----------------------------------------------------
Name:Joseph Hatten CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:26V3-LN
Birth: 4 Apr 1861 Place:Devonport,Devonshire,England
Chr: Place:
Marr:12 Jun 1889 Spouse:Matilda Sophia ALDER-49487
Marr:30 Sep 1920 Spouse:Lydia Euphrosine SCHRAMM-49486
Marr: Spouse:
Death:10 Dec 1964 Place:Manti,Sanpete,UT
Burial:14 Dec 1964 Place:Manti,Sanpete,UT
Father:Robert Wright CARPENTER-49477 Mother:Elizabeth Link HATTEN-49480
Notes --------------------------------------------------------
!BOOK: Jenson, Andrew. Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia: A
Compilation of Biographical Sketches of Prominent Men and Women in the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 4 vols. A. Jenson History
Company and Deseret News, 1901-36. Vol. 2. Carpenter, Joseph Hatten
Page 561: Carpenter, Joseph Hatten, second counselor to Bishop Niels R.
Petersen, of the Manti North Ward, Sanpete county, Utah, was born April
4, 1861, in Devonport, co. of Devon, England, the son of Rev. Robert
Wright Carpenter and Elizabeth Link Hatten. He is a descendant of the
old Dukes of Normandy, his maternal ancestry being cousins to William
the Conqueror. Brother Carpenter's father was a Congregational minister,
therefore Joseph was educated in the Congregational school at Lewisham,
Kent, which was a special school for the education of the sons of
ministers. After leaving this school, Joseph went to Greenwich, where
[p.562] he lived for three years; he then moved to London and was an
employee in the mercantile firm of Messrs. I. & R. Morley, of Wood St.
E. C., for seven years. In March, 1886, he left England for West
Australia in a sailing ship, round the Cape of Good Hope, and after
visiting most of the Australian colonies he started for San Francisco.
While on board the ship "Zealandia" he met two Mormon Elders, Wilson
Ross Pratt and Wm. C. Mellor. After hearing the gospel as taught by
them, he believed it and went direct to Salt Lake City, where he was
baptized March 1, 1887, by James Leatham and settled in the 19th Ward.
In August, 1887, he went to Elsinore, Sevier county, and became clerk of
the Ward.
Nov. 6, 1887, he was ordained a Priest by Bishop Joshua W. Sylvester and
in February, 1888, he was ordained an Elder by August Kotter. In March,
of that year, he moved back to Salt Lake City, where he worked with Geo.
M. Cannon in the county recorder's office until the fall of 1890. He was
also clerk of the 22nd Ward under Bishop Alfred Solomon. June, 12, 1889,
he married Matilda Sophia Alder, of Manti, the daughter of John Alder,
of Canton Appenzell, Switzerland, and Matilda Sophia Schramm of
Wurtemberg, Germany. This union has been blessed with seven children,
four boys and three girls. Joseph Gerald, the oldest son, is now (1914)
filling a mission in Germany. In August, 1890, Brother Carpenter left
Utah on a mission to Samoa, where he labored as conference president on
the island of Sawaii, and returned to Utah in September, 1893. In Manti
(which has been his home ever since) he became an active Y. M. M. I. A.
worker, being secretary and president of the Manti North Ward Y. M. M.
I. A., also Stake corresponding secretary and treasurer and second
counselor in the Stake superintendency of the South Sanpete Stake Y. M.
M. I. A. In 1894-95 Bro. Carpenter held the position of city recorder of
Manti City, and in February, 1895, he became assistant cashier of the
Manti City Savings Bank, where he labored until March, 1911, when he was
called to be assistant recorder in the Manti Temple. He was ordained a
Seventy Aug. 19, 1890, by Apostle Francis M. Lyman, and ordained a High
Priest May 8, 1902, by Gustave A. Iverson and set apart as second
counselor to Bishop Niels R. Petersen, of the Manti North Ward. For some
time prior to this he was one of the presidents of the 48th quorum of
Seventy. Of late years Brother Carpenter has been very much interested
in genealogical research and has been quite successful in gathering a
great deal of data pertaining to the Carpenter and the Hatten families
of England and the United States and he has accomplished a great work in
the Temples for their redemption, being the fulfillment of a blessing
pronounced upon his head by Patriarch Geo. W. Hill, March 12, 1899, in
Salt Lake City, 12 days after his baptism into the Church. Bro.
Carpenter has been a life member of the Genealogical Society of Utah for
some years and is their Stake representative in the South Sanpete Stake.
In his case it has been a veritable fulfillment of the prophecy of
Jeremiah III: 14, wherein it states: "I will take one of a city and two
of a family, and I will bring you to Zion," etc. The No. two of the
family is his brother Geo. Eustance Carpenter, who came to Utah from
South Africa and joined the Church in September, 1893; he was associated
with the "Deseret News" for many years, being their city editor before
resignation, and is now a journalist of high repute. These two brothers
are the representatives in the United States of the Somerset [p.563]
County Carpenters of England, who were yeoman and lived since 1687 at
Bradford-on-Tyne, near Taunton, Sommerset, and were a younger branch of
the Hereford Carpenters, who lived at Dilwyn, Hereford, before 1300 A.
D., and whose ancestor fought in the crusades for the recovery of the
Holy Land from the Saracens and Turks, as their armorial bearings and
crest will indicate.
end
Subject:
Film, Page and Ordinance
Resent-Date:
Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Date:
Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:30:28 -0400
From:
"carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
John from LaMesa informs me that the Carpenter data
before 1400 for the LDS was compiled by a Joseph Hatten Carpenter.
Perhaps John would be nice enough to tell us who J.H.Carpenter
was or is, in detail if possible.
Cordially,
Bruce Carpenter AND THE DAY BEFORE HE WROTE ...
carpenter wrote:
>
> Thanks for the Joseph H. Carpenter information. Can
> you tell me anything more about him? It would be interesting. I have seen > his > name in LDS files and other people have asked me about him.
> Cordially,
> BC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Carpenter Family & Carpenter CD Project
>
> > Dear Bruce,
> >
> > The data I collect is from various sources. One early part (before
> > 1400) was collected mainly by Joseph Hatton Carpenter who spent years
> > going from place to place gathering names and data. Most if not all of
> > his data has been entered into the IGI and noted in Film, page,
> > ordinance, et cetera.
> >
> > The goal of the Carpenter CD project is to present a theory of how the
> > Carpenters came to be. It is not the only theory and as I have stated
> > over and over it is mostly speculation. Those parts that are known as
> > facts are listed in the notes with sources.
> >
> > Another aspect of the Carpenter CD project is to stimulate people to
> > research or say "something is not right."
> >
> > You have done so very admirably, except for the occasional digression
> > into of bias and religion.
> >
> > I encourage every one to ask questions and present data on this
> > Carpenter Forum. I also ask that people treat each other with respect
> > regardless of their point of view, education and knowledge of the
> > Carpenter Family. Discussions of present day Carpenters are just as
> > valid as ancient Carpenters.
> >
> > Genealogy is mostly a self taught course of study. One learns the
> > basics then proceeds from the known to the unknown. We learn of
> > historical events, bibles, letter, wills, deeds, customs and language
> > along the way. We explore our ancestry through these and other events
> > recorded with a name often listed as "Carpenter."
> >
> > We are all experts on our own immediate Carpenter line. The more we
> > share, the more we learn. Everything mentioned in this Carpenter Forum
> > is recorded, and searchable for researchers. This is for use today and
> > for future researchers.
> >
> > It may well be that our great great grandchildren may search those
> > Carpenter Forum records to see how we wrote and responded to others as a
> > way of learning about us!
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > John R. Carpenter
> > La Mesa, CA
> >
> >
> > carpenter wrote:
> > >
> > > I think a major stumbling block to knowledge is this
> > > list of Flemish Carpentiers from the 1300s. There is an overwhelming
> > > temptation to think they had something to do with England, on your part.
> > > Why in the world would you think that Roger was descended from some
> > > Richard in Flanders when William is the obvious choice- same name, same
> > > profession,
> > > same neighborhood, consecutive dates, yadda-yadda. Who compiled
> > > the data for the Mormon Church? Wasn't it you? When you quote film, page
> > > and ordinance, are you not just quoting yourself?
> > > BC
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> > > To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 5:48 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Roger Carpenter of London
> > >
> > > > Dear Bruce,
> > > >
> > > > As I said before - read the notes for speculations ...
> > > >
> > > > !Roger Carpenter was a cousin to William of London, son of John.
> > > > It is not known who his father was. Temporary connection.
> > > >
> > > > !E-MAIL: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)whidbey.com>
> > > > The next London Carpenter to be introduced is Rodger Carpenter,
> likewise
> > > > a pepperer/spicer like the previous William. No indication of
> > > > relationship is divulged in the Calendar of Letter-Books. However,
> when
> > > > Rodger passes away, and subsequently his heir is Thomas is guaranteed
> > > > his rights of inheritance, an all-important clue of other family
> > > > connections is divulged. Like William Carpenter before him, Rodger
> > > > Carpenter is the possessor of substantial assets. ...
> > > >
> > > > Roger was a cousin to William of London, son of John. His father may
> > > > have been named William or ... thus the speculation and connection to
> > > > Richard. Please remember that Roger of London was in my records
> before
> > > > you found the Calandar of Letter-Books.
> > > >
> > > > John R. Carpenter
> > > > La Mesa, CA
> > > >
> > > > carpenter wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 6. Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER le-13037 was born about 1307 in de
> Grand
> > > > > Pont, Du Nord, France.
> > > > > Film #: 170411, Page #: 789, Ordinance #: 30087
> > > > > He had the following children:
> > > > > + 18 M i. Roger of London CARPENTER-14718 was born about 1330.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is impossible. Roger 'the spicer' has to be the son of William
> 'the
> > > > > spicer'. both
> > > > > found in London Letter Books.
> > > > > BC
> > > >
> >
Dear Bruce,
You wrote, "Perhaps John would be nice enough to tell us who
J.H.Carpenter was or is, in detail if possible."
The following data was listed on the Carpenter Forum just a few months
ago. You probably missed it.
John R. Carpenter
Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:51:33 -0800
From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
... Joseph Hatten Carpenter did extensive genealogical work in England
and France. His work is not widely known. Most of it is in the Utah
Genealogical Magazine.
The data below comes from my files.
Sincerely,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
+-¦Robert Wright CARPENTER Rev.-49477
Joseph Hatten CARPENTER-49485 ¦ ¦ 5 Jul 1831
4 Apr 1861 -----------¦ ¦Taunton,Somerset,England
Devonport,Devonshire,England ¦ MRIN:17535
--SPOUSE-- MRIN:17538 +-¦Elizabeth Link HATTEN-49480
Matilda Sophia ALDER-49487 ¦17 Feb 1837
22 Jan 1866 ¦Gravesend,Kent,England
Manti,Sanpete,UT
(There are other marriages)
--CHILDREN--
1Joseph Gerald CARPENTER-49500
2Edith Mathilda CARPENTER-49503
3Edwin Schramm CARPENTER-49505
4-Bertha CARPENTER-49507
5-Heber Eugene CARPENTER-49508
6-Nettie Elizabeth CARPENTER-49509
7-George Alvin CARPENTER-49510
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:49485
-----------------------------------------------------
Name:Joseph Hatten CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:26V3-LN
Birth: 4 Apr 1861 Place:Devonport,Devonshire,England
Chr: Place:
Marr:12 Jun 1889 Spouse:Matilda Sophia ALDER-49487
Marr:30 Sep 1920 Spouse:Lydia Euphrosine SCHRAMM-49486
Marr: Spouse:
Death:10 Dec 1964 Place:Manti,Sanpete,UT
Burial:14 Dec 1964 Place:Manti,Sanpete,UT
Father:Robert Wright CARPENTER-49477 Mother:Elizabeth Link HATTEN-49480
Notes --------------------------------------------------------
!BOOK: Jenson, Andrew. Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia: A
Compilation of Biographical Sketches of Prominent Men and Women in the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 4 vols. A. Jenson History
Company and Deseret News, 1901-36. Vol. 2. Carpenter, Joseph Hatten
Page 561: Carpenter, Joseph Hatten, second counselor to Bishop Niels R.
Petersen, of the Manti North Ward, Sanpete county, Utah, was born April
4, 1861, in Devonport, co. of Devon, England, the son of Rev. Robert
Wright Carpenter and Elizabeth Link Hatten. He is a descendant of the
old Dukes of Normandy, his maternal ancestry being cousins to William
the Conqueror. Brother Carpenter's father was a Congregational minister,
therefore Joseph was educated in the Congregational school at Lewisham,
Kent, which was a special school for the education of the sons of
ministers. After leaving this school, Joseph went to Greenwich, where
[p.562] he lived for three years; he then moved to London and was an
employee in the mercantile firm of Messrs. I. & R. Morley, of Wood St.
E. C., for seven years. In March, 1886, he left England for West
Australia in a sailing ship, round the Cape of Good Hope, and after
visiting most of the Australian colonies he started for San Francisco.
While on board the ship "Zealandia" he met two Mormon Elders, Wilson
Ross Pratt and Wm. C. Mellor. After hearing the gospel as taught by
them, he believed it and went direct to Salt Lake City, where he was
baptized March 1, 1887, by James Leatham and settled in the 19th Ward.
In August, 1887, he went to Elsinore, Sevier county, and became clerk of
the Ward.
Nov. 6, 1887, he was ordained a Priest by Bishop Joshua W. Sylvester and
in February, 1888, he was ordained an Elder by August Kotter. In March,
of that year, he moved back to Salt Lake City, where he worked with Geo.
M. Cannon in the county recorder's office until the fall of 1890. He was
also clerk of the 22nd Ward under Bishop Alfred Solomon. June, 12, 1889,
he married Matilda Sophia Alder, of Manti, the daughter of John Alder,
of Canton Appenzell, Switzerland, and Matilda Sophia Schramm of
Wurtemberg, Germany. This union has been blessed with seven children,
four boys and three girls. Joseph Gerald, the oldest son, is now (1914)
filling a mission in Germany. In August, 1890, Brother Carpenter left
Utah on a mission to Samoa, where he labored as conference president on
the island of Sawaii, and returned to Utah in September, 1893. In Manti
(which has been his home ever since) he became an active Y. M. M. I. A.
worker, being secretary and president of the Manti North Ward Y. M. M.
I. A., also Stake corresponding secretary and treasurer and second
counselor in the Stake superintendency of the South Sanpete Stake Y. M.
M. I. A. In 1894-95 Bro. Carpenter held the position of city recorder of
Manti City, and in February, 1895, he became assistant cashier of the
Manti City Savings Bank, where he labored until March, 1911, when he was
called to be assistant recorder in the Manti Temple. He was ordained a
Seventy Aug. 19, 1890, by Apostle Francis M. Lyman, and ordained a High
Priest May 8, 1902, by Gustave A. Iverson and set apart as second
counselor to Bishop Niels R. Petersen, of the Manti North Ward. For some
time prior to this he was one of the presidents of the 48th quorum of
Seventy. Of late years Brother Carpenter has been very much interested
in genealogical research and has been quite successful in gathering a
great deal of data pertaining to the Carpenter and the Hatten families
of England and the United States and he has accomplished a great work in
the Temples for their redemption, being the fulfillment of a blessing
pronounced upon his head by Patriarch Geo. W. Hill, March 12, 1899, in
Salt Lake City, 12 days after his baptism into the Church. Bro.
Carpenter has been a life member of the Genealogical Society of Utah for
some years and is their Stake representative in the South Sanpete Stake.
In his case it has been a veritable fulfillment of the prophecy of
Jeremiah III: 14, wherein it states: "I will take one of a city and two
of a family, and I will bring you to Zion," etc. The No. two of the
family is his brother Geo. Eustance Carpenter, who came to Utah from
South Africa and joined the Church in September, 1893; he was associated
with the "Deseret News" for many years, being their city editor before
resignation, and is now a journalist of high repute. These two brothers
are the representatives in the United States of the Somerset [p.563]
County Carpenters of England, who were yeoman and lived since 1687 at
Bradford-on-Tyne, near Taunton, Sommerset, and were a younger branch of
the Hereford Carpenters, who lived at Dilwyn, Hereford, before 1300 A.
D., and whose ancestor fought in the crusades for the recovery of the
Holy Land from the Saracens and Turks, as their armorial bearings and
crest will indicate.
end
Subject:
Film, Page and Ordinance
Resent-Date:
Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
Date:
Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:30:28 -0400
From:
"carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To:
CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com
John from LaMesa informs me that the Carpenter data
before 1400 for the LDS was compiled by a Joseph Hatten Carpenter.
Perhaps John would be nice enough to tell us who J.H.Carpenter
was or is, in detail if possible.
Cordially,
Bruce Carpenter AND THE DAY BEFORE HE WROTE ...
carpenter wrote:
>
> Thanks for the Joseph H. Carpenter information. Can
> you tell me anything more about him? It would be interesting. I have seen > his > name in LDS files and other people have asked me about him.
> Cordially,
> BC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Carpenter Family & Carpenter CD Project
>
> > Dear Bruce,
> >
> > The data I collect is from various sources. One early part (before
> > 1400) was collected mainly by Joseph Hatton Carpenter who spent years
> > going from place to place gathering names and data. Most if not all of
> > his data has been entered into the IGI and noted in Film, page,
> > ordinance, et cetera.
> >
> > The goal of the Carpenter CD project is to present a theory of how the
> > Carpenters came to be. It is not the only theory and as I have stated
> > over and over it is mostly speculation. Those parts that are known as
> > facts are listed in the notes with sources.
> >
> > Another aspect of the Carpenter CD project is to stimulate people to
> > research or say "something is not right."
> >
> > You have done so very admirably, except for the occasional digression
> > into of bias and religion.
> >
> > I encourage every one to ask questions and present data on this
> > Carpenter Forum. I also ask that people treat each other with respect
> > regardless of their point of view, education and knowledge of the
> > Carpenter Family. Discussions of present day Carpenters are just as
> > valid as ancient Carpenters.
> >
> > Genealogy is mostly a self taught course of study. One learns the
> > basics then proceeds from the known to the unknown. We learn of
> > historical events, bibles, letter, wills, deeds, customs and language
> > along the way. We explore our ancestry through these and other events
> > recorded with a name often listed as "Carpenter."
> >
> > We are all experts on our own immediate Carpenter line. The more we
> > share, the more we learn. Everything mentioned in this Carpenter Forum
> > is recorded, and searchable for researchers. This is for use today and
> > for future researchers.
> >
> > It may well be that our great great grandchildren may search those
> > Carpenter Forum records to see how we wrote and responded to others as a
> > way of learning about us!
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > John R. Carpenter
> > La Mesa, CA
> >
> >
> > carpenter wrote:
> > >
> > > I think a major stumbling block to knowledge is this
> > > list of Flemish Carpentiers from the 1300s. There is an overwhelming
> > > temptation to think they had something to do with England, on your part.
> > > Why in the world would you think that Roger was descended from some
> > > Richard in Flanders when William is the obvious choice- same name, same
> > > profession,
> > > same neighborhood, consecutive dates, yadda-yadda. Who compiled
> > > the data for the Mormon Church? Wasn't it you? When you quote film, page
> > > and ordinance, are you not just quoting yourself?
> > > BC
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> > > To: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 5:48 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Roger Carpenter of London
> > >
> > > > Dear Bruce,
> > > >
> > > > As I said before - read the notes for speculations ...
> > > >
> > > > !Roger Carpenter was a cousin to William of London, son of John.
> > > > It is not known who his father was. Temporary connection.
> > > >
> > > > !E-MAIL: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp(a)whidbey.com>
> > > > The next London Carpenter to be introduced is Rodger Carpenter,
> likewise
> > > > a pepperer/spicer like the previous William. No indication of
> > > > relationship is divulged in the Calendar of Letter-Books. However,
> when
> > > > Rodger passes away, and subsequently his heir is Thomas is guaranteed
> > > > his rights of inheritance, an all-important clue of other family
> > > > connections is divulged. Like William Carpenter before him, Rodger
> > > > Carpenter is the possessor of substantial assets. ...
> > > >
> > > > Roger was a cousin to William of London, son of John. His father may
> > > > have been named William or ... thus the speculation and connection to
> > > > Richard. Please remember that Roger of London was in my records
> before
> > > > you found the Calandar of Letter-Books.
> > > >
> > > > John R. Carpenter
> > > > La Mesa, CA
> > > >
> > > > carpenter wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 6. Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER le-13037 was born about 1307 in de
> Grand
> > > > > Pont, Du Nord, France.
> > > > > Film #: 170411, Page #: 789, Ordinance #: 30087
> > > > > He had the following children:
> > > > > + 18 M i. Roger of London CARPENTER-14718 was born about 1330.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is impossible. Roger 'the spicer' has to be the son of William
> 'the
> > > > > spicer'. both
> > > > > found in London Letter Books.
> > > > > BC
> > > >
> >
Carpenters:
My statement that Joseph Hatten Carpenter created a mess is a bit
unfair given the age that he lived in. He was a victim of misinformation,
for example the Carpenter
arms existing prior to 1300 etc. What is a more appropriate judgement is
that
he got off on the wrong track, which was forgivable given his time, place
and interests.
Let me post my letter again
as to the appropriate starting point for Carpenter surname research:
"The historical problem of the Carpenter surname might have been solved much
earlier had basic reference been consulted from the beginning. I take blame
for this myself, for searching through English historical records to come to
the conclusion already reached in a basic reference book I neglected to
consult. The book in question is, A DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH SURNAMES, Reaney
and Wilson, Oxford University Press, 1995. If one opens to Carpenter one
finds, "Godwin carpentar' 1121-48 Bury (Sf); Ralph carpenter' 1175 P (Y);
Robert le carpenter 1212 Cur (Sf). AFr carpenter 'carpenter' (c1325 NED)."
The authors are telling us that these early 'carpenters' were not surnamed
Carpenters at all. Carpenter is left uncapitalized. The lot of them were
carpenters of trade. But who were the Carpenters? A few pages later, and
easily overlooked, is the Charpenter, Charpentier notation which reads, "(i)
Gilbert le Charpenter
1227 FFHu; William le Charpenter 1276 AssLa, 1346 LLB F. OFr charpentier
'carpenter', v. also CARPENTER. (ii) Also Huguenot, from John Charpentier
who fled England and was minister of the Malthouse Church, Canterbury, in
1710 (Smiles 375)." Here the authors feel we are in 'Carpenter as a surname
territory' and have appropriately capitalized. I am a little embarrassed by
this, because the authors had found the first example of surnamed Carpenters
in England in 1227, five years before the example that I had found (William
le Charpenter, merchant, in Norwich) for 1232. However I managed to cross
reference his (William's) relative Ralph back to a 1225 document. Yea Bruce!
The 1227 Charpenter material comes from an unpublished Assise Rolls note for
Huntingdonshire. I suspect this is just a name on a list. The material that
I had presented to family and friends presented various insights into the
who, where and what of the first Carpenters. The 1346 William le
Charpenter, quoted by Reaney and Wilson, is from the LONDON LETTER BOOKS,
and surely must be the grandfather of Richard Carpenter the father of John
the Town Clerk."
Bruce E. Carpenter
Another important revealation from the FLEMISH
NOBILITY books was that the noblisse from the Lille
area of Flanders frequently referred to themselves as
'de Aqua'. This was a frequent custom in the Middle Ages
regarding place names and personal designations. Lille was a bit
north of the Cambrai area in Flanders. Among the large Carpenter
group that lived in Oxford at least by mid 1200s a Godefroy Carpenter
was one of the charter members of the St. John Baptist charity that
was begun there. In the many documents relating to Carpenter, one
is found with his personal designation as 'Godefroy Carpentarii de Aqua'.
In another document an associate refers to himself as Osberti ad Aquam.
Without any real proof, I suspect the Carpenters, and at least some
associates,
were wool merchants with ties to Lille in Flanders. Both Lille
and Oxford were major wool and textile centers at the time.
Cordially,
Bruce E. Carpenter
John:
Thank you much for the information. Now it is clear
to me what had transpired, and long ago it was. Joseph Hatten Carpenter
created a mess.
Regretfully,
Bruce E. Carpenter
John:
The Godefroy Carpentier discussed by Jean le Carpenter
was not, and could not have been, Count Godefroy of Avesne.
I thought this silly mistake was settled long ago.
Jean le carpentier had found evidence that Siger and
Godefroy Carpenter were grown men in 1200 ( furent en grand estime a Cambray
& aux environs au siecle 1200).
The 'bienfacteur de l'Abbaye de Vaucelles par Titre de l'an 1280' refers to
property given an abbey after the death of Godefroy Carpentier. We do not
even know
how long after. Certainly Count Godefroy of Avesne was born in 1213, but he
was
unrelated to this Carpentier group. This is another
absurd mistake that is going to become sanctified.
Cordially,
Bruce E. Carpenter
Does anyone know of an Elmer CARPENTER who was from Madison Co.,
NY--MI--MN--SD and ended up in Texas? My father just told me that he lived
at Rio Hondo, down near Brownsville. Apparently he only came back to see
the family in SD once, as Pop remembers it. I would really like to find
out what happened with Uncle Elmer. He was born about 1851 and died in
1930. Elmer was married to Emma PLUM. My info shows six children. I
would like to know their vital stats, too. Any help would be appreciated.
Also, if you know of John Carpenter b. 1797 in VT, lived in Madison Co.,
NY, please let me know. Please! (John was Elmer's grandfather.)
George
---
George R. Carpenter
carpgl(a)ismi.net
You never know where you will find information. When my grandmother died, I
moved many of her things to my house. Among them, were some quilt blocks
that she had pieced in the way they did 50 years ago, on newspaper. My
mother decided she wanted to have these quilted for me and my siblings. I
picked one up this morning to put in a bag to take to my mother. When I
looked down, there on the newspaper that was still attached to the quilt
block was the following obituary:
The Anniston Star, Anniston, AL, Thursday, Jan. 18, 1979
Carpenter - Wedowee [Randolph Co., AL]
Services for Mrs. Effie W. Carpenter, 82, of Wedowee, Rt. 2, will be Friday
at 2 p.m. at Roanoke Church of Christ with Gerald Romine and Sam W. Carpenter
officiating. Burial will be in Wedowee Masonic Cemetery with Benefield
Funeral Home of Wedowee in charge. The body will be at the funeral home
until one hour prior to services.
Mrs. Carpenter died Wednesday at Wedowee Hospital.
Survivors include eight daughters, Miss Louise Carpenter, Mrs. Mildred
Hester, Mrs. Sarah Turner and Mrs. Joyce Davis, all of Wedowee, Mrs. Ermis
Wingard of Birmingham, Mrs. Ione Herren of Woodland, Mrs. Sue Andress of
Brewton and Mrs. Ruth Childress of Roanoke; a son, Sam W. Carpenter, Jr. of
Wedowee; three brothers, Gilbert Washington of Bowdon, GA., Doc Washington
and George Washington, both of Carrollton, GA.; two sisters, Mrs. Lois Daniel
of Carrollton and Mrs. Oleta Suddeth of Roanoke; 25 grandchildren and 11
great-grandchildren.
Pallbearers will be grandsons.
Mrs. Carpenter was a lifelong resident of Randolph County and a homemaker.
She was a member of Roanoke Church of Christ.
I'm not sure to which branch of Carpenters this belongs, but I did want to
pass it on. Needless to say, my mother did not get the quilt blocks.
Sharon
Dr. Warlop in his THE FLEMISH NOBILITY brings up a number of points that
merit consideration for the problem of the noble origins of the Carpentier
from the Lords of Gouy, discussed by 17th century Jean le Carpentier.
Firstly the original Raoul de Gouy found in the ancient historical work
ANNALES DE FLODOARD had a wife who married Count Roger of Laon at his death.
It is right to suppose that that lands of her first husband Raoul, and his
fief of Gouy, passed into the hands of Count Roger. In the Annales the son
Raoul, of the first Roaul of Gouy, is not refrerred to as Rodulfi de
Gaugiaco, but rather Rodulfum, filium Rodulfi de Gaugiaco. In a remarriage
the lands of a noble passed into the possession of the new husband. This was
feudal custom. According to Warlop, and all the other experts on Flemish
nobility quoted by him, the rule is that the eldest son always takes the
name of his father. Therefore from the first half of the 10th century, when
Count Roger should have acquired the fief of Gouy, to 1036 when the name of
Roger of Gouy is encountered as the ancestor of the Carpentiers, only a
century had elapsed. Roger of Gouy was the Lord of Gouy. Jean le Carpentier
does not name the descendants of Roger de Gouy as Sire de Gouy. They do not
bear the name Roger and bear names like Barthelemy and Renaud. They must
have been lesser sons. Anyone with such a title in the 11th century (Sire
de Gouy), according to Warlop, certainly had noble ancestors centuries
earlier. Count Roger was from the royal Carolingian line of Everard. That
the Carpentiers descended from the Everard line certainly deserves
consideration, and strikes me now as more plausible that from Baldwin the
Iron Arm. The original Everard was an Everard of Fruili. Fruili was an
Italian place name. The Carolingians had invaded and claimed rule in Italy.
Perhaps someone could find something more about the Everard line.
Cordially,
Bruce Carpenter
Is Stephen Caleb Carpenter b.1808 in Tenn. and died in Minifee Co. Ky.
married to Nancy Walker the father of Stephen W. Carpenter that married
Margaret McIntosh?in Ky. They had a dau. named Nancy who married a Mynhier.
TIA ,SANDY
Another book just in my possession is PEASANTS AND LANDLORDS IN LATER
MEDIEVAL ENGLAND by Fryde, 1996. There is major material on Bishop John
Carpenter within. The author tells us that, "He appears to have come from
Westbury near Bristol and to have descended from a family of Episcopal
tenants there." (p. 169) An entire chapter is dedicated to the Bishop's
estates and his wool business. Directly connected to these estates is
Chipping Camden where I discovered Richard Carpenter in the company of
drapers, in the role of broker and agent. Here we are talking about the
Cotswolds, the crucial wool producing region of England in the 1400s.
Associated are the estates of the earls of Warwick and Richard Beauchamp who
was directly associated with Bishop John Carpenter. The Warwick earls were
also wool producers, finished cloth producers and even ship owners. This
book may prove a crucial one for Carpenter history. The Carpenters must have
been tenants of the Beauchamps as well.
Cordially,
Bruce Carpenter
Finally I have secured a copy of BREWERS LIFE OF CARPENTER from an Oxford
antiquarian bookseller for 45 lbs. It is a handsome volume of 184 pages and
is inscribed by the author! It was printed, with revisions from an earlier
version, in 1856. There are a number of interesting points in it, which I
will report on. Basically the documents that Brewer could find on Carpenter
prior to 1856 were very few. Brewer lived before the great enterprise of
publishing English historical documents that began many years later. Brewer
accomplishment was the discovery of the 1441 Will. Amos Carpenter in the
Carpenter Memorial on the whole, reproduced the principal facts about
Carpenter that Brewer discovered. The problem is that these facts were never
seriously challenged or investigated in the one hundred and fifty years
since Brewer. Brewer does touch on the interesting problem of Carpenter's
connections to the Mercer's Guild, and this I will touch on later. The book
is a handsome artifact of family history. You might also find a volume for
sale as I did through one of the book networks on the net.
Cordially,
Bruce Carpenter
It seems certain now that the Carpenters arrived in England from Flanders in
the very early 1200s. We were informed by the 17th Dutch historian Jean le
Carpentier that that Carpentiers of the knightly class left for England at
this time. However, the Carpenters found in the 1220s were certainly
merchants. This to my mind is a contradiction, which I wish to solve today
with the aid of the Belgian historian Dr. Hist. E. Warlop and his four
volume study, THE FLEMISH NOBILITY BEFORE 1300. Let me quote directly from
volume I:
"On September 24, 1215, Hugo (of Boves in Amienois) left Muide with a large
number of ships and many knights, among whom were Walter Mechlin, Walter II
of Zottegem, Everard Ralph and Baldwin, brothers of Arnold IV of Oudenaarde.
On September 26/27 the fleet got into a violent storm before Dunwich. Hugo
of Boves was drowned together with 36 other knights. Also a ship of Walter
II of Zottegem disappeared with passengers and crew. The ship of Walter
Bertout was driven out of its course and landed on the coast of Denmark.
Walter from fear had vowed to go to the Holy Land if he was saved. Robert
(VII) of Bethune and Baldwin of Aire, however easily reached Sandwich. Some
of these nobles made a brilliant but short career in England. Robert (VII)
of Bethune was a constable in the English army and Thierry of Zottegem was a
marshal.
When King Louis VIII of France wanted to conquer England, he called his
vassals,among whom were of course, the barons of the former Flemish
territory which had come into French hands through the treaty of
Pont-a-Vendin, and among these Barons was Daniel, lord of Bethune, elder
brother of Robert (VII), a constable in the English army.
Although similar situations were normal at that time, they were finally
disastrous for the Flemish knighthood. Some followed the French king, others
went to earn money in England, others still "sold their souls to the devil"
and even helped the Albigensians if they paid." (pp. 309-10)
Previous to these events Flemish knighthood was ruined in the Battle of
Bouvines against the French. Many of the knights were captured and
financially ruined in the demands of ransom. We are told:
"We can imagine what I disaster it must have been for the many nobiles who
already lacked money resources. After Bouvines some noble knights sought
refuge in England." (ibid., 309)
Events vacillated all through the 1200s with the townspeople and their
militias gaining increasing power and influence. Finally in 1300 the Flemish
knights, as a class, were destroyed.
"A first consequence was a serious defeat near Veurne in August, 1297. In
1300 the French army captured the big towns and the ports on the Zwin. The
Flemish knights, who were scattered throughout these fortifications, could
offer little or no resistance. The year 1300 meant the elimination of the
Flemish army and knights." (ibid., 310)
Cordially,
Bruce E. Carpenter
Searching for info on Levi CARPENTER, my ggf. who was supposed to be
from TN. Possibly born around 1850-1860. Some of his children were Lee,
Jim, Essie, Rufus, who is my gfather and was a preacher. Only info we
have on Rufus CARPENTER, is he was supposed to have come from TN. He m.
Luna WORLEY b. 1880 in Fairfield, IL. They were married Jan. 12, 1900 at
White Oak, MO. Luna was supposed to be Indian. We don't know what Levi's
wife (my ggmother)'s name was or where she was from.
Rufus and Luna Worley CARPENTER, lived in Holcomb, Dunklin Co, MO. and
had children William Adam, Youeal Thomas, Edgar Paul, (my father)who was
a musician, Gladys Earle and Opal Merle.
Could anyone help?
Bruce,
I'm a bit confused. Why is it that Henry and John and Richard must be
related? I was just beginning to accept the idea that coincidence of
residence was no indication of relationship.
Cousin George
---
George R. Carpenter
Pinckney, Michigan
carpgl(a)ismi.net
I thought I'd share some info on this Carpenter couple from their death certificates:
John Carpenter, born 14 February 1836 in Highland Co., Ohio, died 16 April 1924 in Superior, Nuckolls Co., Nebraska. His father is listed as John Carpenter, born Indiana and mother as Frances Garver, no place of birth listed. Wife listed as Ellen L. Rogers.
Ellen Louisa Carpenter, born 6 February 1841 in Washington, Iowa, died 10 March 1916 in Superior, Nuckolls Co., Nebraska. Her father is listed as Henry Rodgers, born Connecticut and mother as Maria Freeman, born New York.
The spellings for Rogers listed, are as they appeared.
John from LaMesa informs me that the Carpenter data
before 1400 for the LDS was compiled by a Joseph Hatten Carpenter.
Perhaps John would be nice enough to tell us who J.H.Carpenter
was or is, in detail if possible.
Cordially,
Bruce Carpenter
Sudna Hughes Carpenter did not die in an Indian attack on Mar. 1792 on the
Elk River.
Benjamin Carpenter and wife Ruth Jeffers Carpenter were killed in this
attack. Benjamin was a brother of Jeremiah Carpenter who married Elizabeth
Hamm, possible sister of Job Hughe's wife.
Proof is yet to be found that Solomon and Sudna Hughes Carpenter were parents
of Jeremiah and Benjamin Carpenter of the Elk River settlement!
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.