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Would anyone like to claim us Southern Carpenters? Any help, suggestions or
opinions would be appreciated on my brick wall.
I know some of you will think this a dumb question, but I would appreciate
the help on this.
1793 Isaac Alexander Carpenter is in LA and list his father and mother
(Isaac Carpenter & Rosa Brown) from "Provience of PA" Does this have
anything to do with the "Providence" line of Carpenters?
Census Records, William L. Carpenter, son of Isaac Carpenter & Ellendor
McCulloch, list his family as from "Ger. Germass" (Germass is hard to read,
could it be Germana?)
Can anyone help me figure out where to look for them? How does Provience of
PA and Germana tie together or does it??
Even if I turn out to be a Zimmerman Carpenter, still proud to be a
Carpenter .
Thanks to all for any pointers, direction, suggestions.
Debbie Carpenter
Louisiana
Amen!
I am new to the Carpenter List and was so grateful for the responses I got.
After reading some of BC's emails, I considered getting off the list. But
then I deceided, as someone with little genology experience, but lots of
common sense that it would be pretty silly of me to let one person stop me
from accessing information that might be helpful!
Like Rodney King said "Can't we all just get along?"
Denise Reistad
dcreistad(a)cs.com
Bruce,
I am family with both the Providence and the Rehoboth lines of Carpenter...
Can we please knock of this bickering, it's non productive at best... If it
doesn't stop I will drop this list. An honest discussion is one thing, but
this nonsense is another.
Hugs,
Cheryl
Bruce, family or not, if you must flame somebody, please do it privately.
-----Original Message-----
From: carpenter <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Date: Saturday, October 28, 2000 7:32 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Zimmermans
>The argument taking place is an old one among Rehoboth and Providence
>Carpenters
>as to their historical origins. No disrespect is intended to other
>Carpenters
>and no attitude of superiority is intentional. If you are not family
>please stay out of the discussion.
>Bruce Carpenter
>
Well I am family and the arguing is stressful to me..You don't realize how
important family is till you start losing them..I have lost 2 sisters since
August and a brother-in-law in May...My line is Carpenters and I am proud of
my family no matter where they come from or what they have done or not
done...This can be settled without the arguing back and forth...I am hurting
so bad from my losses and it makes me sad that family members are arguing
and saying hurtful things to each other...I just had to have my say about
this...please love one another...Irene Read
----- Original Message -----
From: "carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 7:31 AM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Zimmermans
> The argument taking place is an old one among Rehoboth and Providence
> Carpenters
> as to their historical origins. No disrespect is intended to other
> Carpenters
> and no attitude of superiority is intentional. If you are not family
> please stay out of the discussion.
> Bruce Carpenter
>
>
I was asked why I thought William of Rehoboth Carpenter and William of
Providence Carpenter were descendants of the merchant Carpenters and family
of John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. I have no direct evidence of
this and the matter has yet to be researched in a satisfactory way. Let me
present some indirect evidence, which I gathered while researching
Carpenters in the 1400s.
Much evidence exists to show that the merchant Carpenters of greater London
began moving into Berkshire and Wiltshire in the late 1400s. Two good
reasons for this was that first, the family had supported the House of
Lancaster which fell in 1461, and second, that as cloth merchants, the new
growth in the industry took place
outside of big cities in outlining areas with water to supply the
technology of cloth production. One of of the new areas was Wiltshire and
Berkshire along the Wylie valley to Salisbury and the Kennet valley to
Reading. The people in this area raised sheep, fulled it and wove it into a
light cloth called kersey, a popular export item. The merchant Carpenters
who had been active in the cloth trade since the mid 1300s were much in
evidence in this trade in this location.
A good example of this is the John and Thomas Carpenter of Cavenham and
Reading in Berkshire in the late 1400s. A great many documents exist about
them in the Discriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds, vol. 1. John was
described as a ‘husbandsman’ of Caversham. He must have been the sheep
rancher of this family group. Yet he owned many shops and houses in town in
Reading with Thomas Carpenter. Thomas is described as ‘mercer’ and ‘yoman
’, a term commonly used for merchants. He was also ‘mayor’ of Reading
itself. In another document Thomas has title to a fulling mill. Both Thomas
and John had property on the same streets in Reading and appear in other
documents together. John had a son William. The conclusion is that the whole
family were ‘clothiers’. The owned the production of cloth from sheep to
shop. Their wealth is obvious. There seems no reason to doubt they were
relations of the old merchant Carpenter family. For Carpenters in the
Salisbury area itself, the area where the Rehoboth William originated, there
was a John Carpenter designated as ‘clerk’. He was someone working in a
official capacity in a 1467 Patent Rolls trespass case. ‘Trespass’ was
very often a business term for someone in a money conflict of interest. He
appeared with a small group of people from Salisbury in 1462 (Close Rolls,
1462, p. 152). He had title to much local “lands, closes and pastures” in
the area. Sheep were likely in the background. He seems another of these
‘entrepreneur’ Carpenters. At any rate the descendants of the old merchant
Carpenters were probably already in the Salisbury area by 1462 and probably
raising sheep.
The older generation of Carpenter genealogy researchers had American
Williams as descendants of illegitimate offspring of priest Richard
Carpenter. They were at pains to provide evidence that the Herefordshire
Carpenters left descendants in Wiltshire. They said that Oxford University
records showed that Richard Carpenter of Salisbury was from Hereford and had
two sons. Oxford University has published in book form its records. I looked
through the collection and found no reference to Richard. Perhaps I missed
the reference or perhaps the record was not included in the books I looked
through. I am however suspicious that these researchers contrived a pedigree
for the American Williams from the Herefordshire Carpenters, and that the
two Williams were really descendants from Carpenter area wool producers.
This is the matter that needs to be researched.
Another old Wiltshire ‘clothier’ family was the Batt family. They showed
the old family characteristics of the Reading Carpenters. They were mayors
of the town as well as cloth makers. They sent sons to Oxford. They probably
raised sheep themselves as well, or their relatives did. This brings us to
the Wiltshire Carpenters that previous researchers had found (we hope) wills
for. For example there was Robert Carpenter of Upton Scudmore (b. 1494 and
d. 1545) who is described as a ‘husbandsman’ and left sheep to his
children, and likewise left money to Salisbury Cathedral. He seems a wool
producer and probably had wealth. His supposed son William (d. 1587) also
left sheep to his children. William’s brother Thomas was a member of the
church and lived in Marden. This I have seen evidence for, and this says
that the family was wealthy enough to
educate some sons for the church. William’s son Robert (d. 1607) was also
educated at Oxford and records exist. The records also say Robert was
“poor”. At this juncture many of the Wiltshire wool producer and
clothiers lost their wealth. Robert’s children became tradesmen, according
to evidence I have not seen myself.
This seems probable however.
All of these Carpenters in Wiltshire from 1500 are really ‘wool producers’
. The Carpenters around Salisbury cannot be directly identified as
‘clothiers’. However they must have been like the Reading Carpenters
above. Their relatives in town made the cloth. They probably had property in
town and probably had interest in production and retail. Like the Batts,
the Carpenters sent a son or two off for higher education. All their live
form a distinct pattern until 1600, and had previously for a century and a
half. Education, religious involvement and sheep raising were all things
they took to Massachusetts.
Was descent from Richard the priest a myth and another sacred cow?
Bruce Carpenter
The matter of J. Hatten Carpenter’s genealogy is probably more serious than
anyone has realized. The Mormon elite, including Brigham Young himself,
spent an entire year in England before the move to Utah in an attempt to
recruit followers. Herefordshire was one of their important destinations.
The converts they made there were among the first members of their
organization. Mormon genealogist J. Hatten Carpenter, from England in the
1800s, must have been in many ways connected to those events. He and his
genealogy are certainly SACRED COWS in Salt Lake City and have their place
in the history of the religion itself. This means that William ‘the
carpenter’ DeMelun is an enormous sacred cow. There could be no possibility
of ever casting a shadow of doubt on Carpenter genealogy as espoused by J.
Hatten Carpenter. This explains our friend John R. Carpenter’s intransigence
in the face of a mountain of evidence. He wouldn’t dare directly this Mormon
monument. Unfortunately our Carpenter family history is intimately bound up
with these people and their concerns.
Bruce Carpenter
Hi everyone,
I just read an interesting article on the Carpenter
family. Its by a man named Yearly. You probably all
have read it already, I'm rather a newbie at this
still. But, do I understand correctly?
There were several Carpenters that came from England
and settled in Boone County Ky? William Carpenter,
Frank Carpenter, Alice Carpenter.
The English version of Zimmerman is Carpenter??
I'm a little confused, is there a charitable soul on
this list who bring me up to speed on a)the zimmerman
Carpenters and Carpenter station and b) why is this
b.c. person being so rude over a harmless comment?
Sandy
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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I no longer get upset at Bruce's boorishness. It's kind of fun, and it helps
the rest of us remember the importance of civilized behavior, respect for
others - the kind of stuff we learned in kindergarten. Bruce does some nice
work on his particular line, and it's interesting reading even for this
Zimmerman Carpenter. So I'm willing to put up with his occasional lapses in
taste, and remember that behavior is not created by breeding, but
environment. His problems don't reflect on our genes, only his own lack of
education in some of the (to some of us) more important lessons in life. Let
him be, sit back and enjoy, take him for the best he offers and overlook the
rest!
Hi Martha,
You are as good as the English Carpenters...The
name doesn't make a person, the person does with what he does with his
life...Nicholas was a s good as the English Carpenters...Don't let anyone
put you down because of a name...Irene Read
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martha Hardcastle Guthrie" <mothra(a)erinet.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] Carpenter Surname
> Actually, some of us are not "worthy" to be Carpenters - like me. I am of
> that underclass known as the German Zimmerman family who changed their
name
> to Carpenter in America (Zimmerman in German literally translates to
> Carpenter). Those of us who are of that line generally just lurk here
> because we are at the bottom of the Carpenter pecking order on this list.
>
> If you are a real English Carpenter, than at least you are higher than me,
> but maybe not quite as high as some of the lofty souls on this list.
>
> Martha the Miserable Peasant
>
>
> At 07:36 AM 10/28/00 -0500, Barbera C. Miller wrote:
> >Dear Betty,
> >Bravo!!
> >I am one of the "newbies" you refer to--I am definitely a novice at
> >genealogy. For this reason I only subscribe to the list in order to be
> >able to have the opportunity to review other's hard work and dedication,
> >
> >and hope to learn something. I am, however, not a novice at being a
> >Carpenter. Have been all my life. Until Bruce came along, I didn't
> >realize that some Carpenters were to be treated as though they are at a
> >higher level of intelligence than the rest of us. I very much agree
> >that MY line of Carpenter's obviously were much more well mannered than
> >Bruce's. I too, have observed his hostility to those who may have a
> >different opinion.
>
>
George,
Thank you for you comments to Bruce. Well said.
I am new to this group and have been thinking of stopping because of his
yelling, and ranting and raving. Then I thought, why should I let one
rude man stop me from my research. No one is telling him what to enter
in his genealogy files. He gave his finding and most of us are able to
make our own minds up. I am sure we all make notations when we are not
sure of the finding, and state that in our notes.
Lorna Toti
Dear Folks,
If I were really struggling to find my Carpenters, which I am, I would pay
some attention to Orange Co. NY as many Carpenters were located there from
early 1700s on and many migrated northward and then west. There were
Carpenters their descended from both Wm of RI and Wm of Rehoboth, not always
real easy to sort out!!!
I know that some of the Carpenters were intermarried with the WELLS family;
these may be descendants of Soloman of John of John of Wm of Rehoboth, but I
am not sure. There are so many Wells in Orange County that I cannot take the
time to run down all of the references, but below is what I found running
with the name, TETER:
I found a Moriah (?Mariah Teter, Mary??) in the Orange co. will book.
Grandaughter of Sarah VanBrunts Goshen, will made 1810 probated 1826, for
what it is worth a John VanBrunt is witness to will of Wm Randle 1816 who has
a daus. Rebecka Carpenter, (husband un named), Mary Chapman, Sally Baird ,
and Julia Wells. There is also a witness Lewis Finch.
(Some may recall, I recently posted a long question re the
Carpenter/Finch/Coleman families on this board. No one apparently recognized
or is interested in developing the questions that I raised.)
Moving along, Selah Smith Goshen will 1811 has wife Ruth, son Wm, Sally w of
John VanBrunt; Polly Coleman, Nancy Satterly dec'd. Grdchildren: daus of
Nancy and Eliza Fandle (obviously Randle), (Again, Colemans were related to
the Finch/Carpenter folks).
The only HAIGHT that I find is Wm. will 1823 has all daus, Abigail, Miriam,
Amey, son in law Jacob Wandell, Jr. Grandsons Reuben, David, Jabez.
This info. from the EARLY WILLS OF ORANGE CO., NEW YORK published by the Or.
Co. Gen. Soc.
I believe there may be a list of marriages on the Or. Co. Web site -
Coleman's abstracts of the Goshen Pres. Church. (from a book that has
baptisms also) Also the site has persons who registered or pledged 1776
where you might check surenames.
Another thing, if I were interested in the name VanBrunt, I would run, not
walk, to the New York Dutch list, I think this is the address, not sure,
NYDUTCHE-L(a)rootsweb.com . That list is about as energetic and helpful as any
could be. Some of the Vans are not Dutch, but a whole bunch are.
I am afraid this is all I can say about these folks.
Phoebe
Thank you, PHoebe
The argument taking place is an old one among Rehoboth and Providence
Carpenters
as to their historical origins. No disrespect is intended to other
Carpenters
and no attitude of superiority is intentional. If you are not family
please stay out of the discussion.
Bruce Carpenter
"Let them read the data for themselves. They can read and determine for
> themselves." (John R. Carpenter)
The CD project of John R. Carpenter is much more than that. It is the
research of the Mormon genealogist
J. Hatten Carpenter redone.
The Mormon genealogist J. Hatten Carpenter gave us what was basically a Book
of Carpenter, which was in many ways like the Book of Mormon. The desciples
of J. Hatten Carpenter are producing a revised and expanded Book of
Carpenter, now called the CD of Carpenter. The desciples of J. Hatten
Carpenter are also advocates of the Book of Mormon. Both the Book of
Carpenter and the Book of Mormon are religious books that espouse faith. You
can believe it, or not believe it, depending on you personal choice. The
Book of Mormon, was the sacred scriptures of the Mormons, first published
in 1830 in Palmyra, New York, by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon
church. By Smith's account, he found the record, which was written on golden
plates, in a hill near his home and with divine aid translated the text into
English. The plates then disappeared; according to Smith, an angel took them
after the translation. Sound familiar? J. Hatten Carpenter did the same
thing with the Book of Carpenter beginning with William ‘the carpenter’
DeMelun. He didn’t provide any evidence other than William DeMelun had
‘carpenter’ for a nickname. The golden plates had surely disappeared,
although the descendants remained. Both the Book of Mormon and the Book of
Carpenter are not about rather ordinary people who had to get up for
breakfast. They are about mythic founders i.e. larger than life beings that
transverse continents and do big stuff. The Book of Mormon is about a
mythical superman, the prophey Lehi, whose deeds span continents. The Book
of Carpenter is about a superman guy, actually a count, with an axe who
carries a flag with three crosses over half the world. It is said that the
Book of Mormon is a redone Old Testament. Likewise is the Book of Carpenter.
A good subtitle for the Book of Carpenter would be, “How Many Wanderings and
Travails Resulted in Us.” J. Hatten Carpenter’s intent was biblical. The
facts of Carpenter history are better than this.
Bruce Carpenter
Dear Betty,
Bravo!!
I am one of the "newbies" you refer to--I am definitely a novice at
genealogy. For this reason I only subscribe to the list in order to be
able to have the opportunity to review other's hard work and dedication,
and hope to learn something. I am, however, not a novice at being a
Carpenter. Have been all my life. Until Bruce came along, I didn't
realize that some Carpenters were to be treated as though they are at a
higher level of intelligence than the rest of us. I very much agree
that MY line of Carpenter's obviously were much more well mannered than
Bruce's. I too, have observed his hostility to those who may have a
different opinion.
To Bruce, I must tell you I come from a line of well educated
Carpenters, who really CAN decide for themselves, as John R. pointed
out. And I don't think I have to sit through a class where the pompous
teacher tells me "repeat after me." I might add that I am far from
being an idiot. I think this would hold true for most of the Carpenters
out there who subscribe to this list. Just exactly where do you get off
with your behavior?
To John R., please keep up the good work. Your posts are obviously the
result of a lot of hard work, and are very thought provoking.
Yes, Bruce, some of us Carpenter's can think, even though, as you term
it, we are "fools".
Barbera Carpenter Miller
Cousin Bruce,
I'm really surprised that a person of your obvious intelligence and breeding
would stoop to such a level as to call another person a fool. This is not
very professorial. If someone is ranting and raving and flying out of
control, then wouldn't it be more in keeping with your credentials and
learned position to maintain a calm and controlled demeanor and simply
produce the evidence, point by point, thus teaching the ignorant souls on
the list exactly what the truth of this matter is, and allowing the entire
membership of the list to decide for themselves exactly how foolish these
rantings and ravings are? Please, Cousin, can't we have learned discourse
instead of outraged name-calling? In my experience, no one really needs to
point out the idiot in the group. The idiot usually does a good enough job
of that himself.
Take care,
Cousin George
----- Original Message -----
From: "carpenter" <carp(a)tezukayama-u.ac.jp>
> Look fool, John R. Carpenter is publishing a phony genealogy of the
English
> Carpenter family and no one has stood up to him except me. If you don't
care, why not
> mind your own business.
> BC
Susan,
Welcome to the Carpenter list! We have fun together. Especially we have
fun when someone goes berserk. Please ignore those episodes, as they do go
away. On common names, I am looking for John Carpenter of VT and NY, who
married Mary O'Connor of Ireland. I asked my Pop if he had any idea as to
how I should proceed in finding the background of these two, and he said,
"Well, as for John Carpenter, you can't throw a stick without hitting one.
As for Mary, just go to Dublin and ask for Mary O'Connor." Lots of help
there! LOL Still, if you have first and last names of a married couple, a
date or two (even approximate), and a place, you have a good start. You
have approx. birthdates and a place. Check OH vital statistics, birth
records, and newspaper announcements, as well as church records, if there
was a christening/baptism. Also, with a marriage date, you can check local
newspapers for wedding information, which very likely will include the name
of parents of the bride and groom, as well as church records, if you can
find the church where the marriage took place. I don't know what kind of
marriage records they had in Delaware County in, say, 1869 or 1870, but I'll
bet there is something you can latch onto. I'm pretty sure that, if the
first daughter was born in 1871, the marriage was maybe something over (or a
bit under) nine months before that. At least that's a start.
George
---
George R. Carpenter
carpgl(a)ismi.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Hobbs" <lvisfan35(a)home.com>
To: <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 5:15 PM
Subject: [CARPENTER] Mary Carpenter
> Hi....
> I just joined this list and I'm searching for my great-grandmother:
> Mary CARPENTER b. ca. 1850, possibly Ohio
> m.
> George WELLS b. ca. 1850 in Delaware Co., OH
> They had two known children:
> Louisa b. 1871
> Elnora b. 1878 Delaware Co., OH
> That is the sum total of the info I have on Mary.
> Wouldn't you know it....she would have to have such a common name and then
> she goes off and marries someone else with a common name. Drat. I wish her
> name was Hortense Hinkeldoffer, Beulah Bashnagel or Gretchen
> Grabbanose......anything but Mary....
> Any info would be joyously welcomed.
> Thank you,
> Susan
>
>
Hello all,
This is just one of those "fools" trying to resolve a less aged question
as to my ancestry. I'm looking for any info on a John Carpenter born
abt. 1804-5 in Albany Co. NY who married a Mary Teter in 1822. Also, I'm
looking for info on a David Carpenter who married a Eleanor Haight in
the 1820s in or around Rensselaerville NY. Possibly a Quaker marriage as
this appeared in Quaker records. David and John may have been brothers
or cousins. Any info received will be thoroughly research as I only
believe that which I can verify through direct records. English, French,
German, Flemish or otherwise. I also believe that any and all e-mail
delivered to my box is my business to be minded so I would thank all
respondants to be civil. Christ warned us about calling our brothers
"fools" and I most certainly believe that I am HIS brother. Thanks to
all who send help.
James A. Carpenter
To all members of the Carpenter forum
I have been reading the transmittals on this forum from B C and find his
actions distasteful at best. This page is established to have a
meaningful exchange of information between "intelligent people"
interested in the Carpenter family genealogy. I would suggest Bruce
take his attempts of disrupting this group some were else. If he has a
problem, he can present his views and discuss them with John, or any
other willing person, in privet using his own e-mail, and not the forum.
It's obvious he is playing to the group to get attention, and has no
desire to resolve any issues. I would suggest that if this continues we
all sanction the individual. It's hard to have an argument if there is
only one participant. Maybe he will mature and provide constructive input
to the group or just go away.
Jack
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.