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Dear Bruce,
I am excited! I think you may have found data on Godwin (b. abt 1100)
Carpenter's retirement location. As you know many of the nobility went
into monasteries for their old age. I knew that Godwin went into a
Monastery in Normandy (Per the Edwin Sellers book).
"Gaufrido Carpentari" is the latin version of Godwin (Godefroy or
Godefroid in French) Carpenter. This means Godwin lived to a ripe old
age and probably died there!
"... Origins in Normandy, from the Calendar of Documents Preserved in
France, vol. 1, 1189-1199. "Charter of Jordan de Champern confirming to
the canons regular.... Gaufrido Carpentari." This was for the Priory of
St. Stephen in the Diocese of Bayeux. He is no earlier than the
patronymic Carpenters in Carpentier's Histoire, but is from a primary
source I have seen myself. I don't accept anything I haven't seem
myself. BC"
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16311
- ------------------------------------------------
Name:Godwin CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
Birth:Abt 1100 Place:of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,IDF,France
Chr: Place:of,Suffolk,England
Marr: Spouse:Unknown
Father:William CARPENTER-28699 Mother:
Notes ----------------------------------------------
!aka Godefroid or Godefroy in French, Godwin in Old English.
!Per Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist: "In 1121 A.D. a
Godwin Carpenter resided in Suffolk County, England."
end partial notes.
**********
I could not find "Sallop" or similar in the UK maps that I have. The
change from 1272 to present has not reflected similar name or close
variants for "Sallop.".
**********
You indicate that the following Robert is the one you found circa 1253.
Can you please show me the differences? Please provide how the data
needs to be revised. I must have missed something, since I don't know
what to revise.
>INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16310
> >---------------------------------------------
> > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
> > Birth:Abt 1167 Place:of,Suffolk,England
> > Chr: Place:
> > Marr: Spouse:Unknown
> >Father:Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 Mother:
> >Notes ------------------------------------------
> >!Robert or Robert Le Carpenter found in Suffolk Curia Regis Rolls in
> >1212. He is believed to be the descendant of William the Carpenter, b.abt 1042.
> >Found in the IGI as born abt 1167 in Huntingdon,C,England.
What do you think of the Antrobus deed circa 1250 AD below?
> >!SEE: Calendar of Antrobus Deeds before 1625, edited by R. B. Pugh in
> >1947. Published by by the Wiltshire Archaeology & Natural History
> >Society Records Branch. Submitted by Peter Goodhugh, 1992 of the
> >Amesbury Society in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. Page I, undated circa 1250 in black pencil.
> >"Gift with warranty by Christine daughter of John de Ambresber' in her widowhood to Robert Kade for his homage and service of a messuage and curtilage lying between the messuage of Robert the carpenter and . . ." Robert the carpenter acts as a witness also.
> >Page 5, dated 9 July 1321 mentions "Carpenter Street (in vico
> >carpentarii) in Great Ambri'." (ie Amesbury, Wiltshire, England)
> >Page 6, dated 18 Mar 1323 mentions "Gift with warranty by Stephen le
> >carpenter of Winterbourn' to Henry Curteis of Ambresbur' of a tenement with a curtilage which he had in the town of Ambresbur' . . ." (ie town of Amesbury).
> >
> >Robert Carpenter appears to be some type of Relative to Christine listed above circa 1250 AD. Daughter in law? or ? Christina and Christine is close, I wonder and the relationship?
> >
> >You list several Carpenters, can you supply the source for each?
> >
I am still looking forward to your clarifications on the questions I
asked. I really would like to know more!
Your cousin on the Rehoboth Carpenter line,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
************************************************************
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
>
> Number two is our boy, but dates do not match my
> Curia Regis Rolls dates. Need to revise.
> Number three is a trade carpenter. Number
> one is a real head scratcher. I have seen your listing that Bishop
> Melun was a patronymic Carpenter. You should check this. The Bishop
> lived well before surnames. He is really not a patronymic
> Melun, I think. He lived in Paris. Unless he was Robert le Carpentier de
> Melun.
> My understanding is that his genealogy is a complete question. He taught in
> Paris
> for 40 odd years. Hence Robert de Melun. I think you need to boot him.
> By the way, long ago I ran across what might be the earliest example
> of patronymic use of Carpenter, in my opinion. Origins in Normandy, from
> the Calendar of Documents Preserved in France, vol. 1, 1189-1199.
> "Charter of Jordan de Champern confirming to the canons regular.... Gaufrido
> Carpentari."
> This was for the Priory of St. Stephen in the Diocese of Bayeux.
> He is no earlier than the patronymic Carpenters in Carpentier's Histoire,
> but is from a primary source I have seen myself. I don't accept anything
> I haven't seem myself.
> BC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> To: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 5:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Suffolk Robert
>
> >Dear Bruce,
> >
> >I have 3 Robert Carpenters in that time period.
> >
> >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28078
> >--------------------------------------------
> > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
> > Birth:Abt 1150 Place:of,Hampshire,England
> >Son of Robert Carpenter-200031 - Bishop Melun.
> >
> >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16310
> >---------------------------------------------
> > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
> > Birth:Abt 1167 Place:of,Suffolk,England
> > Chr: Place:
> > Marr: Spouse:Unknown
> >Father:Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 Mother:
> >Notes ------------------------------------------
> >!Robert or Robert Le Carpenter found in Suffolk Curia Regis Rolls in
> >1212. He is believed to be the descendant of William the Carpenter, b.
> >abt 1042.
> >Found in the IGI as born abt 1167 in Huntingdon,C,England
> >
> >The paper on the early Curia Regis Rolls of 1212 lists him as above.
> >
> >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28082
> >-------------------------------------------------
> > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
> > Birth:Abt 1181 Place:Winchester,Hampshire,England
> >Father:Robert CARPENTER-28078 Mother:
> >
> >!SEE: Calendar of Antrobus Deeds before 1625, edited by R. B. Pugh in
> >1947. Published by by the Wiltshire Archaeology & Natural History
> >Society Records Branch. Submitted by Peter Goodhugh, 1992 of the
> >Amesbury Society in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. Page I, undated circa
> >1250 in black pencil.
> >"Gift with warranty by Christine daughter of John de Ambresber' in her
> >widowhood to Robert Kade for his homage and service of a messuage and
> >curtilage lying between the messuage of Robert the carpenter and . . ."
> >Robert the carpenter acts as a witness also. See also Robert Carpenter
> >born about 1167.
> >Page 5, dated 9 July 1321 mentions "Carpenter Street (in vico
> >carpentarii) in Great Ambri'." (ie Amesbury, Wiltshire, England)
> >Page 6, dated 18 Mar 1323 mentions "Gift with warranty by Stephen le
> >carpenter of Winterbourn' to Henry Curteis of Ambresbur' of a tenement
> >with a curtilage which he had in the town of Ambresbur' . . ." (ie town
> >of Amesbury).
> >
> >Robert Carpenter appears to be some type of Relative to Christine listed
> >above circa 1250 AD. Daughter in law? or ? Christina and Christine is
> >close, I wonder and the relationship?
> >
> >You list several Carpenters, can you supply the source for each?
> >
> >I will check and see where "Sallop" is in England.
> >
> >Let us know the sources. Fascinating stuff!
> >
> >Your Rehoboth Cousin,
> >
> >John R. Carpenter
> >La Mesa, CA
> >
> >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
> >>
> >> I have meant to go through your early
> >> data and compare your findings with mine. I
> >> am beginning to see you have many
> >> of the individuals I have encountered. For example you
> >> have a Robert b. 1167 in Suffolk and a Curia Regis Rolls
> >> notation for 1212. I haven't seen that,however I
> >> found a Curia Regis Rolls notation for Robert Carpenter
> >> married to Christina for 1253. The Suffolk Carpenters
> >> seemed to me a distinct group i.e. that had capital
> >> for land. There was a Thurston and a John of Butley Carpenter for
> 1230-32.
> >> All of the above might be descendants of Ralph Carpenter who is listed
> for
> >> land aquisition in both Norfolk and Suffolk for 1225-26.
> >> In 1272 in Sallop, a Robert is noted as son of Radulphus. There was also
> a
> >> John son of Ralph
> >> noted for Norfolk.
> >> I question the 1212 date for Robert. Is there even Curia Regis Roll
> >> data that early? Where was Sallop?
> >> BC
> >
John wrote:
> "Gaufrido Carpentari" is the latin version of Godwin (Godefroy or
> Godefroid in French) Carpenter. This means Godwin lived to a ripe old
> age and probably died there!
It looks to me as if you are mixing up Godwin with Godfrey. These are
not the same name. For that matter, Godwin is primarily an English
name, while Godfrey is more Frankish or Norman.
> I could not find "Sallop" or similar in the UK maps that I have. The
> change from 1272 to present has not reflected similar name or close
> variants for "Sallop.".
Salop is the standard abbreviation for Shropshire.
John Chandler
Let me explain the nature of the Curia Regis Rolls, from which all that I
know of the very early (1200s) merchant Carpenters in England, is derived.
The Curia Regis was the early court system in England. It has a long
history. The written records exist from 1196. All of the medieval papers
were collected into sixteen volumes. The first covers 1196-123l. The Regis
Rolls has records of land transfers. These nearly always involve people of
influence or power, such as barons, gentry, rich merchants and the like.
The Regis Rolls are one of the few really superb sources for English history
along with the Close Rolls and the Patent Rolls. The fact that the merchant
Carpenters figure prominently in these historical sources is testament of
their distinguished place in history. Unrelated individuals such as
carpenters of trade do not appear in these documents. This is probably
unfair, but a fact of history and life. In order to have a name in history
you must be someone or do something to ensure your name in the record. A
family line with economic influence gets its name in the record. A more
humble family does not. This can be a kind of litmus test for family history
in earlier periods. The rich Smiths of the 1400s were descended from the
rich Smiths of the 1300s and so on. It is undemocratic, but a fact of
history. A strict genealogical history of the Carpenter (Carpentier) family
cannot be reconstructed. There are constant gaps along the way. However, a
history of a family group sharing time, place and historical circumstance
can be written. While the genealogical connections can be unclear at many
junctures back through time, the family group as a whole can be quite
distinct in shared time, place and historical circumstance.
BC
Dear Bruce,
I have 3 Robert Carpenters in that time period.
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28078
- ------------------------------------------
Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
Birth:Abt 1150 Place:of,Hampshire,England
Son of Robert Carpenter-200031 - Bishop Melun.
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16310
- -------------------------------------------
Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
Birth:Abt 1167 Place:of,Suffolk,England
Chr: Place:
Marr: Spouse:Unknown
Father:Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 Mother:
Notes ------------------------------------------
!Robert or Robert Le Carpenter found in Suffolk Curia Regis Rolls in
1212. He is believed to be the descendant of William the Carpenter, b.
abt 1042.
Found in the IGI as born abt 1167 in Huntingdon,C,England
The paper on the early Curia Regis Rolls of 1212 lists him as above.
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28082
- -----------------------------------------------
Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
Birth:Abt 1181 Place:Winchester,Hampshire,England
Father:Robert CARPENTER-28078 Mother:
!SEE: Calendar of Antrobus Deeds before 1625, edited by R. B. Pugh in
1947. Published by by the Wiltshire Archaeology & Natural History
Society Records Branch. Submitted by Peter Goodhugh, 1992 of the
Amesbury Society in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. Page I, undated circa
1250 in black pencil.
"Gift with warranty by Christine daughter of John de Ambresber' in her
widowhood to Robert Kade for his homage and service of a messuage and
curtilage lying between the messuage of Robert the carpenter and . . ."
Robert the carpenter acts as a witness also. See also Robert Carpenter
born about 1167.
Page 5, dated 9 July 1321 mentions "Carpenter Street (in vico
carpentarii) in Great Ambri'." (ie Amesbury, Wiltshire, England)
Page 6, dated 18 Mar 1323 mentions "Gift with warranty by Stephen le
carpenter of Winterbourn' to Henry Curteis of Ambresbur' of a tenement
with a curtilage which he had in the town of Ambresbur' . . ." (ie town
of Amesbury).
Robert Carpenter appears to be some type of Relative to Christine listed
above circa 1250 AD. Daughter in law? or ? Christina and Christine is
close, I wonder and the relationship?
You list several Carpenters, can you supply the source for each?
I will check and see where "Sallop" is in England.
Let us know the sources. Fascinating stuff!
Your Rehoboth Cousin,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
>
> I have meant to go through your early
> data and compare your findings with mine. I
> am beginning to see you have many
> of the individuals I have encountered. For example you
> have a Robert b. 1167 in Suffolk and a Curia Regis Rolls
> notation for 1212. I haven't seen that,however I
> found a Curia Regis Rolls notation for Robert Carpenter
> married to Christina for 1253. The Suffolk Carpenters
> seemed to me a distinct group i.e. that had capital
> for land. There was a Thurston and a John of Butley Carpenter for 1230-32.
> All of the above might be descendants of Ralph Carpenter who is listed for
> land aquisition in both Norfolk and Suffolk for 1225-26.
> In 1272 in Sallop, a Robert is noted as son of Radulphus. There was also a
> John son of Ralph
> noted for Norfolk.
> I question the 1212 date for Robert. Is there even Curia Regis Roll
> data that early? Where was Sallop?
> BC
I have meant to go through your early
data and compare your findings with mine. I
am beginning to see you have many
of the individuals I have encountered. For example you
have a Robert b. 1167 in Suffolk and a Curia Regis Rolls
notation for 1212. I haven't seen that,however I
found a Curia Regis Rolls notation for Robert Carpenter
married to Christina for 1253. The Suffolk Carpenters
seemed to me a distinct group i.e. that had capital
for land. There was a Thurston and a John of Butley Carpenter for 1230-32.
All of the above might be descendants of Ralph Carpenter who is listed for
land aquisition in both Norfolk and Suffolk for 1225-26.
In 1272 in Sallop, a Robert is noted as son of Radulphus. There was also a
John son of Ralph
noted for Norfolk.
I question the 1212 date for Robert. Is there even Curia Regis Roll
data that early? Where was Sallop?
BC
Dear Bruce,
I hope you are recording and documenting where you find all these unique
Carpenters. And I hope you will share all what you find.
To find additional data on Adam Carpenter and his wife Agnes Carpenter
would be first rate. I would still like to see how you linked Adam to
John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. Can you show us?
Adam was the son of Ailric and the grandson of Ralph in my records.
Ralph had a grandfather named William, but no brothers named William
that I found. Can you please share those records that show Ralph and
William as brothers or father and son?
Also interesting is the relationship between Ralph and Adam, can you
post the documents of how and when they imported wine into England?
Also any export data? This would be a great find and very interesting!
You indicated that "Adam had a son Galfridus who was part of the
Lincolnshire Carpenters. The Lincolnshire Carpenters can be tracked
right into London of the 1300s." Can you please share this data? It
would help considerably in understanding the Carpenters of that time.
I hope you will share all those chronological land-buys and land-rents
you find and the other pieces of the puzzle!
Also if you post the record in latin, the members of the Carpenter Forum
can find someone to help translate. All of us might help with pieces of
the puzzle.
Please post as much as you find on Carpenters. It helps everyone!
Thanks again!
Your Rehoboth Carpenter cousin,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
************************************************************
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
>
> John:
> I have encountered your first Adam and wife Agnes (I
> recall seeing him and must check again).I recall he
> seemed a trade-carpenter. Your second one may be the Adam
> I have discussed. Your data may be from a land aquisition. The Adam
> I am discussing left a chronological trail
> of land-buys and land-rents from Norfolk to
> Herefordshire from 1225 to 1250. We are talking
> 'manum domini regis' class land aquisitions. He has to
> be the same individual. Ralph appears aquiring land
> in Norfolk, Surry and
> Herefordshire at the same time. Were Adam and Ralph brothers or
> father/son ? Ralph had a brother William who in turn had
> a son John. Another possibility is Ralph and William
> were father and son. Adam had a son Galfridus who was
> part of the Lincolnshire Carpenters. The Lincolnshire
> Carpenters can be tracked right into London of the 1300s.
> Lincolnshire Gilbert Carpenter (merchant) can
> be seen in the same legal document with Richard Carpenter
> in 1360s. Gilbert was of course long gone by 1360.
> This is post plague London and Richard
> had interest in several properties which can
> be documented. Richard's exact relation to Gilbert is not
> known. Uncle? These same Lincolnshire Carpenters move their commercial
> activities into York.
> A good deal of this material is in Latin and I am sure there
> are many excellent clues that I am missing. It may be
> a long time before I can account for it all. I am still
> collecting. The Oxford material promises to reveal a lot.
>
> BC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001(a)home.com>
> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp(a)whidbey.com>
> Cc: CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L(a)rootsweb.com>; Tony & Gil
> Carpenter <tony.c.(a)skynow.net>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius(a)flash.net>;
> John L. Carpenter <familysearcher(a)mailcity.com>; Bette Butcher Topp
> <toppline(a)cet.com>
> Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 12:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Carpenter mills 2
>
> >Dear Bruce,
> >
> >I need some clairfications on your last memo to the Carpenter forum.
> >This starting with Adam and Ralph Carpenter in the early 1200s.
> >
> >First, RE: Adam ...
> >
> >I have two Adam Carpenters in that time period.
> >
> >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:13036
> >-----------------------------------------------
> > Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
> > Birth:Abt 1200 Place:Christburneford,Dorset,England
> > Chr: Place:
> > Marr: Spouse:Agnes CARPENTER-13063
> >Father:Ailric CARPENTER-13062 Mother:
> >
> >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:34956
> >----------------------------------------------------
> > Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
> > Birth:Abt 1225 Place:of Coventry,Warwickshire,England
> > Chr: Place:
> > Marr: Spouse:Unknown
> >Father:Hugh CARPENTER-34584 Mother:
> >Hugh being the son of Jordan (b. 1165) Carpenter-34588 and the grandson
> >of William (b. abt 1130) Carpenter-34551. William (34551) is the fourth
> >William from William "the carpenter" De Melun.
> >
> >Which Adam can be linked and how to John Carpenter to the Town Clerk of
> >London?
> >
> >The reason I ask is I know of only two possible lines of approach from
> >Godwin to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London.
> >
> >Previously it was believed to be through Godwin then Ralph in England to
> >Ailric, then Adam to Elgan then back to France to Siger then JEAN to
> >Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John the
> >younger, the noted Town Clerk of London.
> >
> >The current theory is that it is more direct (staying in France) through
> >Godwin then Reynaud then Jean then Godefroy (brother of Siger) then to
> >JEAN to Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John
> >the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London.
> >
> > +---¦William CARPENTER-28699
> >Godwin CARPENTER-16311 ¦ ¦Abt 1067/1068
> >Abt 1100 -------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France
> >of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France
> >MRIN:10394
> > --SPOUSE--
> >MRIN:5862
> >--CHILDREN--
> > 1Reynaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-47915
> > 2Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308
> >
> >If you can show which one or another Carpenter line is probable, I would
> >be very grateful.
> >
> >SECOND - Back to Adam and Ralph you mentioned. Re: Ralph Carpenter ...
> >
> >I only have one Ralph or Raulf in my records. He is listed as the father
> >of Ailric and the grandfather to one of the Adams above.
> >
> >Ralph Carpenter was found in the Yorkshire Pipe Rolls in 1175. It is
> >believed that he tried to regain some lands in Norfolk and Suffolk that
> >was taken by King Edward II because of his father and uncle supporting
> >King Stephen. After or during service for the King in Yorkshire, and
> >for his continued support of the King he was later given some land in
> >Norfolk.
> > +---¦Godwin CARPENTER-16311
> >Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308¦ ¦Abt 1100
> >Abt 1135 --------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France
> >of,Yorkshire,England ¦ MRIN:5862
> > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5675
> >
> > --CHILDREN--
> > 1Ailric CARPENTER-13062
> > 2-Hugh CARPENTER-28077
> > 3Robert CARPENTER-16310
> > 4-Alice CARPENTER-51170
> > 5-Joan CARPENTER-51171
> >
> >Do you have documents listing Adam and Ralph imported wine into England
> >from France? Also the export data? This would be a great find!
> >
> >Thanks for the confirmation on the two daughters of Ralph (Alice and
> >Joan). Keep bringing this stuff in!
> >
> >The William Carpenter you found in Ireland was probably the son of ...
> >
> > +---¦Adam CARPENTER-13036
> >Alexander CARPENTER-13061 ¦ ¦Abt 1200 (son of Ailric)
> >Abt 1215 --------------¦ ¦Christburneford,Dorset,England
> >of Conral,,Ireland ¦ MRIN:4557
> > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:18210 +---¦Agnes CARPENTER-13063
> > ¦Abt 1199
> > ¦of,Northampton,England
> >
> >Alexander was noted of Conral, Ireland and held land there. Later when
> >that line died off, the Carpenters in England probably used the common
> >family ancestry to reclaim land under the title "Baron of Killaghy"
> >which was granted for faithful service in 1719.
> >
> >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:11685
> >----------------------------------------------
> >Name:George CARPENTER Lord Sex:M ID No:
> >Birth:10 Feb 1657 Place:Ocle Pychard,Hertfordshire,England
> >Chr: Place:Baron,of Killaghy,Ireland
> >Marr: 1693 Spouse:Alice CAULFIELD-11739
> >Death:10 Feb 1731 Place:
> >Burial:Abt 10 Feb 1731 Place:Owsebury near,Westchester,H,England
> >Father:Warncomb CARPENTER-11684 Mother:Elizabeth OR E TAYLOR-19790
> >
> >
> >Keep the material coming in, it's GREAT!
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin,
> >
> >John R. Carpenter
> >La Mesa, CA
> >*****************************************************
> >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
> >>
> >> The following is an important document in the history of the early
> Carpenter
> >> family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely
> >> originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s
> >> they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and
> >> subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in
> Lincolnshire
> >> and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family
> >> group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which
> enabled
> >> them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be
> >> seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding
> >> export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of
> Bordeaux
> >> (Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine
> >> production and export from that English possession in France. The
> document I
> >> wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le
> Bigod
> >> (1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The
> interesting
> >> detail in this document is the mention of a mill with land adjoining.
> This
> >> mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in
> >> English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all
> the
> >> production facilities for wool and many other products. The early
> Carpenters
> >> used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of
> wool
> >> production. They also controlled facilities for the production of
> finished
> >> cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres,
> for
> >> export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT
> DEEDS,
> >> vol. 1, A 532, p. 63.
> >>
> >> Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for
> >> 40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in
> >> Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John
> de
> >> Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.
> >>
> >> While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another
> related
> >> document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in
> 1290.
> >> The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this
> time
> >> be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group
> was
> >> active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at
> the
> >> time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as the
> Kings
> >> serjeant, the meaning of which was completely different from modern
> >> definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held
> >> land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of
> the
> >> names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in
> >> England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the
> >> Kings property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went
> to
> >> Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The
> mills
> >> mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above
> >> document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the
> mills
> >> were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From
> CALENDAR
> >> OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827.
> >>
> >> The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of
> the
> >> Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to
> >> William le Carpenter, of the Kings mills, houses, and lands of
> Chapelizod,
> >> to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As
> William
> >> was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other
> >> moiety at Michaelmas.
> >>
> >> As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland.
> >>
> >> Bruce Carpenter
Dear Bruce,
I need some clairfications on your last memo to the Carpenter forum.
This starting with Adam and Ralph Carpenter in the early 1200s.
First, RE: Adam ...
I have two Adam Carpenters in that time period.
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:13036
- ---------------------------------------------
Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
Birth:Abt 1200 Place:Christburneford,Dorset,England
Chr: Place:
Marr: Spouse:Agnes CARPENTER-13063
Father:Ailric CARPENTER-13062 Mother:
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:34956
- --------------------------------------------------
Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:
Birth:Abt 1225 Place:of Coventry,Warwickshire,England
Chr: Place:
Marr: Spouse:Unknown
Father:Hugh CARPENTER-34584 Mother:
Hugh being the son of Jordan (b. 1165) Carpenter-34588 and the grandson
of William (b. abt 1130) Carpenter-34551. William (34551) is the fourth
William from William "the carpenter" De Melun.
Which Adam can be linked and how to John Carpenter to the Town Clerk of
London?
The reason I ask is I know of only two possible lines of approach from
Godwin to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London.
Previously it was believed to be through Godwin then Ralph in England to
Ailric, then Adam to Elgan then back to France to Siger then JEAN to
Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John the
younger, the noted Town Clerk of London.
The current theory is that it is more direct (staying in France) through
Godwin then Reynaud then Jean then Godefroy (brother of Siger) then to
JEAN to Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John
the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London.
+---¦William CARPENTER-28699
Godwin CARPENTER-16311 ¦ ¦Abt 1067/1068
Abt 1100 -------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France
of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France
MRIN:10394
--SPOUSE--
MRIN:5862
--CHILDREN--
1Reynaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-47915
2Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308
If you can show which one or another Carpenter line is probable, I would
be very grateful.
SECOND - Back to Adam and Ralph you mentioned. Re: Ralph Carpenter ...
I only have one Ralph or Raulf in my records. He is listed as the father
of Ailric and the grandfather to one of the Adams above.
Ralph Carpenter was found in the Yorkshire Pipe Rolls in 1175. It is
believed that he tried to regain some lands in Norfolk and Suffolk that
was taken by King Edward II because of his father and uncle supporting
King Stephen. After or during service for the King in Yorkshire, and
for his continued support of the King he was later given some land in
Norfolk.
+---¦Godwin CARPENTER-16311
Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308¦ ¦Abt 1100
Abt 1135 --------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France
of,Yorkshire,England ¦ MRIN:5862
--SPOUSE-- MRIN:5675
--CHILDREN--
1Ailric CARPENTER-13062
2-Hugh CARPENTER-28077
3Robert CARPENTER-16310
4-Alice CARPENTER-51170
5-Joan CARPENTER-51171
Do you have documents listing Adam and Ralph imported wine into England
from France? Also the export data? This would be a great find!
Thanks for the confirmation on the two daughters of Ralph (Alice and
Joan). Keep bringing this stuff in!
The William Carpenter you found in Ireland was probably the son of ...
+---¦Adam CARPENTER-13036
Alexander CARPENTER-13061 ¦ ¦Abt 1200 (son of Ailric)
Abt 1215 --------------¦ ¦Christburneford,Dorset,England
of Conral,,Ireland ¦ MRIN:4557
--SPOUSE-- MRIN:18210 +---¦Agnes CARPENTER-13063
¦Abt 1199
¦of,Northampton,England
Alexander was noted of Conral, Ireland and held land there. Later when
that line died off, the Carpenters in England probably used the common
family ancestry to reclaim land under the title "Baron of Killaghy"
which was granted for faithful service in 1719.
INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:11685
- --------------------------------------------
Name:George CARPENTER Lord Sex:M ID No:
Birth:10 Feb 1657 Place:Ocle Pychard,Hertfordshire,England
Chr: Place:Baron,of Killaghy,Ireland
Marr: 1693 Spouse:Alice CAULFIELD-11739
Death:10 Feb 1731 Place:
Burial:Abt 10 Feb 1731 Place:Owsebury near,Westchester,H,England
Father:Warncomb CARPENTER-11684 Mother:Elizabeth OR E TAYLOR-19790
Keep the material coming in, it's GREAT!
Sincerely,
Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin,
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
*****************************************************
Bruce E. Carpenter wrote:
>
> The following is an important document in the history of the early Carpenter
> family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely
> originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s
> they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and
> subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in Lincolnshire
> and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family
> group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which enabled
> them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be
> seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding
> export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of Bordeaux
> (Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine
> production and export from that English possession in France. The document I
> wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le Bigod
> (1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The interesting
> detail in this document is the mention of a mill with land adjoining. This
> mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in
> English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all the
> production facilities for wool and many other products. The early Carpenters
> used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of wool
> production. They also controlled facilities for the production of finished
> cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres, for
> export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT DEEDS,
> vol. 1, A 532, p. 63.
>
> Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for
> 40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in
> Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John de
> Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.
>
> While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another related
> document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in 1290.
> The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this time
> be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group was
> active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at the
> time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as the Kings
> serjeant, the meaning of which was completely different from modern
> definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held
> land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of the
> names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in
> England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the
> Kings property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went to
> Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The mills
> mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above
> document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the mills
> were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From CALENDAR
> OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827.
>
> The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of the
> Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to
> William le Carpenter, of the Kings mills, houses, and lands of Chapelizod,
> to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As William
> was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other
> moiety at Michaelmas.
>
> As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland.
>
> Bruce Carpenter
A major information source for early Carpenter history will certainly be A
Cartulary of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist, the surviving records of
a medieval charitable institution. The hospital was located in Oxford and
was more than a hospital in modern terms. It was a rest home for the old and
rich, an inn for travelers etc. We know the London Carpenters were related
to the Oxford Carpenters through Sir John Carpenter and his siblings who had
property in and about Oxford about 1300. Luckily the ancient records for the
Hospital of St. John still survive. Many Carpenter land records survive from
the mid 1200s, in what is a treasure-trove of Carpenter history. Oxford was
one of the centers for cloth making in the 1200s. A fulling mill originally
subsidized the Hospital of St. John itself. It is no surprise to find
Carpenters there, in force. Later I will present as much of this data as I
can.
Bruce Carpenter
The following is an important document in the history of the early Carpenter
family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely
originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s
they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and
subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in Lincolnshire
and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family
group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which enabled
them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be
seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding
export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of Bordeaux
(Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine
production and export from that English possession in France. The document I
wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le Bigod
(1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The interesting
detail in this document is the mention of a mill with land adjoining. This
mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in
English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all the
production facilities for wool and many other products. The early Carpenters
used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of wool
production. They also controlled facilities for the production of finished
cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres, for
export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT DEEDS,
vol. 1, A 532, p. 63.
Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for
40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in
Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John de
Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.
While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another related
document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in 1290.
The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this time
be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group was
active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at the
time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as the Kings
serjeant, the meaning of which was completely different from modern
definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held
land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of the
names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in
England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the
Kings property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went to
Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The mills
mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above
document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the mills
were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From CALENDAR
OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827.
The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of the
Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to
William le Carpenter, of the Kings mills, houses, and lands of Chapelizod,
to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As William
was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other
moiety at Michaelmas.
As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland.
Bruce Carpenter
Carpenter, Betsey Bath NY William Purdy 25 July 1817
Fingerlake website.
Carpenter, Amira Elmira NY Robert H. Thompson 6 Jan 1819
<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~chickened/fingerlakes.html">Finger Lakes
Region of NY Genealogy</A>
Dear Phoebe,
Thanks! You help shed a few more details on Nathaniel, son of Benjamin
Carpenter below!
Thanks again!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA
MzCortez(a)aol.com wrote:
>
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyccazen/Cemeteries/Peripheral/DelphiFallsCem.html
>
> Looking for my Moses Carpenter, not here, but some other Carpenters are.
>
> Phoebe
************************************************************
Descendants of Benjamin CARPENTER-17220
First Generation
1. Benjamin CARPENTER-17220 was born 1753 in Chester, Orange, NY. He
died 28 Sep 1828 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
!Benjamin Carpenter served in the Americal Revolution, He fought in the
battle of Montgomery, NY on the Hudson River bank against Britsh General
Sir Henry Clinton, and Earl. The Carpenter cousins named Clinton (Gen.
James Clinton and Gen. George Clinton) were fighting their Britsh
Cousins.
This family line submitted by John E. Proctor (brn 1933) of Stillwell KS
4/96
Benjamin married (1-MRIN:6129) Lydia CHANDLER-17221, daughter of
Nathaniel CHANDLER-20250 (MRIN:7289) on 24 Dec 1776 in New Windsor, NY.
Lydia was born about 1754 in NY.
This family line submitted by John E. Proctor (brn 1933) of Stillwell KS
4/96
Benjamin and Lydia had the following children:
+ 2 M i. Nathaniel CARPENTER-47914 was born 2 May 1777 and died 6 Dec
1863.
+ 3 F ii. Hannah CARPENTER-17222 was born 1786.
4 M iii. Samuel CARPENTER-17223 was born 1784 in Goshen, Orange, NY
and was christened 1 Apr 1786 in Presbyterian, Church, Goshen, NY.
Baptisim record comes from Rutenber's "History of the Presbyterian
Church, Goshen NY"
This family line submitted by John E. Proctor (brn 1933) of Stillwell KS
4/96
Second Generation
2. Nathaniel CARPENTER-47914 was born 2 May 1777 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
He died 6 Dec 1863 in Onondaga, NY and was buried in Baptist Cem.,
Delphi Falls, Onondaga, NY.
!Not in the Proctor database but in the IGI.
This Nathaniel is believed to be the same Nathaniel buried in Delphi
Falls, NY. Living in close proximity was Nathaniel Carpenter b. abt.
1777 CT; d. 6 Dec 1863 NY; m. Lucy Gage b. 21 Nov 1780 Woodstock Twp,
Windhan, CT; d. 7 Sep 1874*** NY d/o Elisha Gage b. 1753; d. 31 May
1833 and Olive Underwood b. 1756, d. 13 Jul 1835. ***Conflict*** Death
date for Lucy listed as 20 Jan 1860, age 79 years on cemetery data
below.
All buried Delphi Falls, Onondaga Co., NY cemetery behind the Baptist
church. Burial list from Web Page:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyccazen/Cemeteries/Peripheral/DelphiFallsCem.html
Delphi Falls Cemetery, Hamlet of Delphi Falls, Town of Pompey, Onondaga
County, New York, 1803 - 1933Carpenter, Abigail A. Babcock, wife of
Major Carpenter, Field check by Daniel H. Weiskotten,
October 14 & 15, 1994 born 1824, (death date not given), age not given).
posted 7/19/1999. Carpenters listed are:
Carpenter, Jennie L. Porter, wife of Austin B. Carpenter, died September
6, 1884, age 24 years. In the 1860 census Nathaniel was in the home of
Carpenter, Gilbert J., died September 27, 1849, age 32 years 4 months 6
days. Carpenter, Lucy, wife of Nathaniel Carpenter, died January 20,
1860, age 79 years. Major Carpenter b. abt. 1823 Oswego Co., NY; m.
Abigail____ b. abt. Carpenter, Major, born 1822, died 1895, (age not
given).
Carpenter, Nathaniel, died December 6, 1863, age 86 years. 1824 Erie
Co., NY
!Children listed:
1. Jerome b. abt. 1848 Onondaga Co., NY; m. Inez Sally Brown 2.
Gilbert b. abt. 1853 Onondaga Co., NY; d. 1924, buried Fayetteville,
3. Abigail b. abt. 1859 OnondagaCo., NY
I believe these families to be related but have no proof. There are also
several other Carpenter's I have found in the area but am unsure how
they relate, if at all.
Sharon Goff Garrett.
Nathaniel married (1-MRIN:17716) Lucy GAGE-49973, daughter of Elisha
GAGE-49974 and Olive UNDERWOOD-49975 (MRIN:17717) in Onondaga, NY. Lucy
was born 21 Nov 1780 in Woodstock Twp., Windham, CT. She died about 20
Jan 1860 in Onondaga, NY.
!DEATH: CONFLICTING DEATH DATE! Lucy Gage b. 21 Nov 1780 Woodstock Twp,
Windhan, CT; d. 7 Sep 1874*** NY d/o Elisha Gage b. 1753; d. 31 May
1833 and Olive Underwood b. 1756, d. 13 Jul 1835. ***Conflict*** Death
date for Lucy listed as 20 Jan 1860, age 79 years on cemetery data
below.
Carpenter, Lucy, wife of Nathaniel Carpenter, died January 20, 1860, age
79.
Nathaniel and Lucy had the following children:
5 M i. Gilbert J. CARPENTER-33416 was born about 21 May 1817 in
Oswego, NY. He died 27 Sep 1849 and was buried about 27 Sep 1849 in
Baptist Cem., Delphi Falls, Onondaga, NY.
!Tombstone indicates he died age 32 years, 4 months and 6 days.
This works out to be about:
+ 6 M ii. Major CARPENTER-49976 was born 1822 and was buried 1895.
3. Hannah CARPENTER-17222 was born 1786 in Goshen, Orange, NY and was
christened 1 Apr 1786 in Presbyterian, Church, Goshen, NY.
The baptisim records come from Rutenber's "History of the Presbyterian
Church, Goshen, NY"
This family line submitted by John E. Proctor (brn 1933) of Stillwell KS
4/96
Hannah married (1-MRIN:6130) Noah ELLIS-17224 on 1807. Noah was born
1786 in NY. He died about 1840.
!Noah Ellis was a cooper in Newburgh NY, and later in Goshen NY. He
married Hannah Carpenter, (1807?).
They had 5 children? Lydia, Samuel, Lewis, Susan, Harriet.
Records taken from an entry in "Richard Ellis and his Descendants" by
E.R. Ellis, which says, "Noah Ellis with his brothers John, James and
Joseph were coopers living near Newburgh, NY and later in Goshen, NY"
Noah and Hannah had the following children:
7 F i. Lydia ELLIS-17225 was born 1808 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
8 M ii. Samuel ELLIS-17226 was born 1810 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
9 M iii. Lewis ELLIS-17227 was born 1811 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
10 F iv. Susan ELLIS-17228 was born 1812 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
11 F v. Harriet ELLIS-17229 was born 1815 in Goshen, Orange, NY.
Third Generation
6. Major CARPENTER-49976 was born 1822 in Oswego, NY. was buried 1895 in
Baptist Cem., Delphi Falls, Onondaga, NY.
NAME: First name Major or was it his rank?
Major married (1-MRIN:17718) Abigail A. BABCOCK-49977. Abigail was born
about 1824 in Erie, NY. was buried in Baptist Cem., Delphi Falls,
Onondaga, NY.
They had the following children:
12 M i. Jerome CARPENTER-49978 was born about 1848 in Onondaga, NY.
Jerome married (1-MRIN:17719) Inez Sally BROWN-49981. Inez was born
about 1848 in NY.
13 M ii. Gilbert CARPENTER-49979 was born about 1853 in Onondaga, NY.
He died 1924 and was buried in Fayetteville, NY.
14 F iii. Abigail CARPENTER-49980 was born about 1859 in Onondaga, NY.
15 M iv. Austin B. CARPENTER-33414 was born about 1860/1864 in
Onondaga, NY.
Austin married (1-MRIN:18201) Jennie L. PORTER-51154. Jennie was born
1864 in of, Onondaga, NY. She died 6 Sep 1884.
Index
Name ID Generation
BABCOCK, Abigail A. 6S 3
BROWN, Inez Sally 12S 4
CARPENTER, Abigail 14 4
CARPENTER, Austin B. 15 4
CARPENTER, Benjamin 1 1
CARPENTER, Gilbert 13 4
CARPENTER, Gilbert J. 5 3
CARPENTER, Hannah 3 2
CARPENTER, Jerome 12 4
CARPENTER, Major 6 3
CARPENTER, Nathaniel 2 2
CARPENTER, Samuel 4 2
CHANDLER, Lydia 1S 1
ELLIS, Harriet 11 3
ELLIS, Lewis 9 3
ELLIS, Lydia 7 3
ELLIS, Noah 3S 2
ELLIS, Samuel 8 3
ELLIS, Susan 10 3
GAGE, Lucy 2S 2
PORTER, Jennie L. 15S 4
The following record from REGISTRUM UNIVERSITAS
OXON exists for a John Carpenter, perhaps the grand nephew of the
Town Clerk John and son of John Carpenter b. 1410.
"Carpenter, John, sup. for B.A. 28 Jan.1451/2, inc. as M.A.
4 Dec. 1455."
At the same time a Robert is listed.
"Carpenter, Robert, adm.B.Can.L. 28 Feb. 1449/50-of All Souls,
Anstey 599,618."
BC
One more Carpenter found living in the Fleetstreet area, with all the others
in the 1300s. The exact area is Holebourne just above Fleetstreet itself.
This William must be the William Carpenter, designated alternately as a
spicer and a pepperer. William was a wealthy merchant who financed the crown
and is thought to be the father of Rodger Carpenter discussed previously.
This general area of London must have a overall designation, though I have
yet to discover it. So many Carpenters have been found to live there from
the late 1200s to 1400, in documents that are ungenerous in specifics, that
the conclusion must be that all the London Carpenters lived in the area,
which was a kind of Carpenter village. This is from CALENDAR OF
LETTER-BOOKS, Letter-Book B, p. 169. The document shows that William was
under obligation to pay a debt. It by no means shows that William was
impoverished.
Saturday the eve of Palm Sunday [27 March], 34 Edward I. [a.d. 1306}, came
William le Charpenter de Holebourne and William le Barber de Cordwanerstrete
before John le Blound, Mayor, John de Wengrave, and Richard Poterel, the
Chamberlain, and acknowledged themselves jointly and severally indebted to
John de Wyndessore de Phelippeslane in the sum of 10s.; to be paid at the
Feast of Pentecost, and unless, &c.
Bruce Carpenter
Hi
Does anyone know of a Filena (Philena) Carpenter born ca 1765 (prob in
CT) who married Eleazer Grover (1760-1859 IN). One known child Samuel
married Mary Wooden; they lived in New Carlisle, IN.
Any help appreciated.
Julie Dresser
Julie
JRDresser(a)aol.com
============================================================
"Dwell on the past, and you'll lose an eye. Ignore the past, and you'll
lose both of them."
Old Russian Proverb
"What the Son wishes to forget, the Grandson wishes to remember."
Marcus Lee Hansen
Information
This is the Carpenter Cousins Rootsweb. Since many Zimmermans became Carpenters, Both are discussed here along with related DNA information.