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Anna....If what you wish to post is genealogical in nature, and of interest to
ANYONE on the list, then I would imagine it to be fair game for posting. I am
unsure about all of the "proprietary information" that has become a source of
argument on another list that I was on, but if a post concerns my finding items
that I think would interest the others, I would post it. I feel badly that you
do not feel free or safe enough to post your information or findings on this
public list. THe rules are already posted for everyone to check out, and
Patricia has told us where they are, so I dont understand where the confusion
comes in. You must be on that "new" closed list the other Carmans researchers
are on...the one that alot of us were not invited to because of our views. Oh
well! Good luck in your research! David
Anna Bourke wrote:
> David and List,
>
> I am taking a big risk here to speak on this "nonsense". Because I have
> been afraid to post anything to this list, whether it be Carman related or
> announcing some neat link for genealogy I have seen, because I don't know
> the "policy". I have been reprimanded when I participated, and seen the
> Listowner post the same type of information that I have had my wrist slapped
> for. I have seen others and I have even been removed from this. I have been
> told I can't be on this list and the CARMAN-L.
>
> So you see, David and List, even though only one person has spoken about it,
> it is not because no one else cares. It is because of fear of being booted
> and never having the chance to have that long lost link arrive in your
> MAILBOX one day.
>
> And you might CARE also, David, because of this lack of policy and the
> actions that have taken place affects you, too. The long lost link you may
> be looking for may never be posted to this list. Someone out there who has
> it, may be one who is afraid to post, too.
>
> Member of CARMAN-ROOTS-L,
> Anna
>
> >From: "David A. Henry" <dah1(a)gte.net>
> >Reply-To: CARMAN-ROOTS-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >To: CARMAN-ROOTS-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >Subject: Re: Banning/List Topics
> >Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:22:42 -0500
> >
> >Patricia....how much longer is this going to go on? Most (if not all of
> >us, aside from this "frodoa" person, do not care about this, why must we
> >have to wade through this sort of nonsense?
> >
> >frodoa(a)att.net wrote:
> >
> > > Despite my request of 18 Jan, the listowner has not
> > > provided topic guidance to either this list nor the
> > > sister list of "Carman-l." The listowner has also
> > > refused to answer my private emails.
> > >
> > > Again, I request clarification of list topics and for
> > > banning to stop. It is my understanding that over five
> > > people have been banned from the Carman lists in the
> > > past year.
> > >
> > > Frodoa
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project:
> > > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time.
> > > http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/
> >
> >
> >==============================
> >Free Web space. ANY amount. ANY subject.
> >RootsWeb's Freepages put you in touch with millions.
> >http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I don't know how long I will be on this list but I
felt it necessary to add my two cents to the topic.
I agree with the comments made by Anna and would point
out that it is no secret that I disagree with the harsh
treament that a number of Carman Researchers have
received from Rootsweb/the administrator of this list.
My normal email address was placed on the global reject
list without so much as a howdy do. I belonged to many
lists and only had conflicting issues with the Carman lists.
So, I was banned for all resources without so much as an
explanation. The only reason I am able to address you this
morning is a slight modification to my address so that the
reject filter didn't trigger.
The accepatable use policy states under item no. 6:
"YOU SHOULD NOT DECREASE THE ENJOYMENT OF OTHERS. Your posts
should not flame or otherwise harass other users and should be
reasonably on topic for the areas where they appear, and you
should otherwise adhere to the principles of netiquette. "
Reading "Frodoa" posts, there were no flames and the only thing
the person did was to point out areas of concern and ask questions.
Yet, that person was flamed! The beauty of the internet is that
you can chose to sit and watch or participate.
It is quite apparent to anyone reading the archives for the
Carman Lists on Rootsweb, that there is a dual standard to what
the listowner can post and what the list member can post.
I thought it was reasonable that "Frodoa" was expecting an answer.
There are many issues regarding online genealogy that raise
passions amongst the community today. The USGENWEB project is
wrestling with the copyright issue and it's dependence on a
commercial genealogy service. The issue is hot and many have
taken sides. But to ignore concerns over our rights, is to doom
online genealogy to failure. There are many levels of expertise
in genealogy, but to take away all rights, will force people not
to participate. Much more so than concerns over a "professional" vice
"personal" debate in an online forum such as a mail list.
My two cents, (and I also didn't flame anyone!)
Daniel P. Carman
There is only person that I know of that would take the time to
accumulate such a vast amount of information to make a point as
worthless as the one you, "Frodoa", have made. I have no further comment
to you, and will just put your posts in the garbage before they ever hit
my Mailbox....similar to what you did to me not so long ago.
Frodoa(a)att.net wrote:
> My apologies to Mr. Henry and anyone else that is
> on this list for actually addressing an issue of
> concern. After all, this list has a great deal
> of traffic to "wade" through.
>
> Jan 2000 total posts 6
> Dec 1999 total posts 3
> Nov 1999 total posts 6
> Oct 1999 total posts 3
> Sep 1999 total posts 0
> Aug 1999 total posts 1
>
> Refering to "us" as in list membership
>
> non-listowner posts to Carman-Roots
>
> 3 people participated in Jan
>
> 1 person participated in Dec (1 post)
>
> nobody participated in Nov
>
> nobody participated in Oct
>
> nobody participated in Sep
>
> nobody participated in Aug
>
> Last messages sent by Mr. Henry prior
> to today on this list were in May 1999
> and they were forwarded by the
> Listowner. Aside from the issue I have
> regarding the list. I have sent two
> genealogical items this month.
>
> Most people receive more spam in a
> day then has been going to this list in
> a month. So I think there can be a little
> latitude in obtaining clarification of list
> proceedures and actions.
>
> Frodoa
>
> ==============================
> The RootsWeb WorldConnect Project:
> 12.8 million individuals and counting.
> http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/
My apologies to Mr. Henry and anyone else that is
on this list for actually addressing an issue of
concern. After all, this list has a great deal
of traffic to "wade" through.
Jan 2000 total posts 6
Dec 1999 total posts 3
Nov 1999 total posts 6
Oct 1999 total posts 3
Sep 1999 total posts 0
Aug 1999 total posts 1
Refering to "us" as in list membership
non-listowner posts to Carman-Roots
3 people participated in Jan
1 person participated in Dec (1 post)
nobody participated in Nov
nobody participated in Oct
nobody participated in Sep
nobody participated in Aug
Last messages sent by Mr. Henry prior
to today on this list were in May 1999
and they were forwarded by the
Listowner. Aside from the issue I have
regarding the list. I have sent two
genealogical items this month.
Most people receive more spam in a
day then has been going to this list in
a month. So I think there can be a little
latitude in obtaining clarification of list
proceedures and actions.
Frodoa
Patricia....how much longer is this going to go on? Most (if not all of
us, aside from this "frodoa" person, do not care about this, why must we
have to wade through this sort of nonsense?
frodoa(a)att.net wrote:
> Despite my request of 18 Jan, the listowner has not
> provided topic guidance to either this list nor the
> sister list of "Carman-l." The listowner has also
> refused to answer my private emails.
>
> Again, I request clarification of list topics and for
> banning to stop. It is my understanding that over five
> people have been banned from the Carman lists in the
> past year.
>
> Frodoa
>
> ==============================
> Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project:
> Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time.
> http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/
Despite my request of 18 Jan, the listowner has not
provided topic guidance to either this list nor the
sister list of "Carman-l." The listowner has also
refused to answer my private emails.
Again, I request clarification of list topics and for
banning to stop. It is my understanding that over five
people have been banned from the Carman lists in the
past year.
Frodoa
Patricia,
Witin the subject post you posted. What was the
chapter or section in the book that this information
came from? Was this a compilation of church records?
What was the page reference. How did you come by the
information?
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/CARMAN-L/2000-
01/msg00034.html
The list owner of this list and it's sister list,
Carman-l on rootsweb, recently banned a subsciber on
Carman-l stating as one of the reasons posting off topic
posts. The following guidance was provided. However,
just days, after the banning. The listowner posted an
off-topic post on the very topic that was considered off-
topic. Neither the Welcome message for this list nor
it's sister list provide specific topic guidance.
Therefore is slightly unfair to be harassed off a
genealogy list because the listowner choses which topic
is appropriate on which day!
Topics that have been posted include: Spam, PML (on
occasion) general genealogy resources on the Internet
and reposting of messages that are already in the
ROOTSWEB archives.
Please provide guidance to the Carman Genealogy Lists
on Rootsweb so as not to harrass people with a legitimate
interest in genealogy.
The following guidance was provided by the listowner:
Topic: Clarification of meaning of word "flames".
8 Jan 2000
"You mentioned that you did not understand a message
sent to you.
Perhaps this will help --
You sent a message, let us call it message A, to the
list.
This message went to the archives, the list and to my
PML. When I replied it, Message A was attached to my
reply again going to the list, the archives and my
PML.
I replied, quoting Message A, instructing list members
not to reply to the message. Now six copies of the
message have been sent
A subscriber replied to Message A which was quoted and
again went to the list, the archives and my PML.
Now nine copies of the message have been sent.
The subscriber appologized again with the message
attached and now 12 copies of the message have been
sent.
That is why controversial off-topic messages are
called flames. They spread and spread and are hard to
stop. Some people have limited space. If such
messages are allowed to take up space it may cause
extra and unnecessary expense or cause their space to
be used up on messages to be diverted.
It is the job of the list manager to see that this
does not happen."
Topic: In regards to a subscribers message that was
stopped prior to being sent to the list.
9 Jan 2000
"Thank you for the URLs for spam, which are useful.
However, I wonder why you feel it necessary to include
the sentence
"following the listowner's lead for topic"?
Would you care to resend a reworded message or allow me
to delete that sentence?"
Topic: In regards to another subscribers message that
was stopped prior to being sent to the list.
9 Jan 2000
"Thank you for your useful URL.
Perhaps you would reword your post to include your own
experience with Ancestry and include fees and guarantees
to the submitter of the Gedcom.
The Ancestry site is one of many which accepts gedcoms,
and the number of sites offering this service grows
every day. There is, however, a significant difference
in the Rootsweb and Ancestry site which you,
surprisingly, in view of your previously stated
objection to Rootsweb making money from sponsors who
subscribe to PML, did not mention. Ancestry is a
subscription site.
The fee is certainly reasonable, but there are
significant differences in comparison to the Rootsweb
site. Rootsweb, in addition to offering free
access to the public and guaranteeing they will never
burn a CD with the information, allows complete control
of the gedcom by the submitter. Corrections can be made
by the submitter, or a complete new gedcom can be
submitted. In addition, others can add post-ems to the
gedcoms.
My own experience here has been very positive. I found
a couple of people had made a mistake in a date in my
line -- I first put up a post-em and wrote the original
poster and the second poster. Later I removed the
postem since I felt it might be imperious and
contentious. Then I received email that the posters
would remove the dates I had questioned. Although I
have no personal experience with Ancestry or
Familytreemaker, I understand it is almost impossible to
remove information from their gedcoms.
There are a number of other sites which are asking for
gedcoms -- and which are searchable and, as far as I
know, are non-commercial sites which charge only for
expenses.
And then -- most unfortunately, there are sites about
which questions have been raised.
Beyond that -- there are sites which started out as
hobbies and have been bought by *big* companies -- and
those placed no one even knows exist."
Topic: Clarification of list policies sent privately to
a subscriber from the list owner
9 Jan 2000
"I sent you this URL *privately* and asked that you read
it VERY carefully. It is not new.
I feel the URL I recommended to you puts things very well
and I choose it among the many that are available.
This message and a previous one which I returned to you
for revision have references to me which I feel are
unnecessary. Your previous posts to the list about PML
and Rootsweb polices are also a problem.
Access to the Rootsweb facilities is free to the
genealogical public, and is voluntary. I recommend that
you reread the FAQs."
Topic: List Welcome message sent privately to a
subscriber but not to the list
9 Jan 2000
"Welcome to the Carman-L(a)rootsweb.com
If you have never been on a list before, it works this
way: You send to the list your information. If anyone
recognizes this info, they send to you *and to the list*
a reply. Hopefully, this connecting of two
researchers will, in turn, ring more bells.
Theoretically, the list members should send their
information every once in a while so that new members
can read this info and perhaps make a link.
Our list members tend to be a bit taciturn, so be
patient with them."
Topic: PML Reposts. List owner stops reposts with this
annoucement only to resume a day later
11 Jan 2000
"
During the past month or so, I have been forwarding the
material I
received from the Personal Mailing List as part of my
$24 sponsorship of
Rootsweb to the list.
While I have enjoyed forwarding these notices while I
had to time during
Winter Recess, it is time consuming, and I cannot
continue.
If you have found this premium notification of resources
useful you may
wish to become a Rootsweb sponsor.
And, of course, all this information is available
through the regular
search engines.
Successful searching in 2000."
Topic: Bans a subscriber after the subscriber actually
removed lines from original post. Note the Listowner
placed the entire list in review mode for all but didn't
have time to review the posts of the one subscriber she
banned.
14 Jan 2000
"By chance I reviewed the posts which you sent to the
list and which were forwarded on Sunday 9 January. And
discovered the phrase "[ ] censored by listowner" placed
20 or more blank lines below the last line of the post.
I had to laugh, the joke is on me.
However, unfortunately, due to other time commitments, I
am unable to continue to review your posts and return
them to you to ask that negative and imflamatory
comments be edited out.
I am therefore unsubscribing you from the list.
I wish you successful searching and good luck."
Banning and censorship needs to stop on a Carman
Genealogy list!