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Hi Patty,
I don't know about all those others out there...but I certainly did the
'slinkys' in 'penmanship' at my school... ..maybe we were the only two that
did that, reckon?
Luv
Norm
At 01:45 PM 7/2/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Do you remember in grade school when the teacher would have you practice
>script by forming circles that looked like a slinky when you finished? Well,
>I have noticed at the end of documents where the signature goes, instead of
>an (X), sometimes there is a squiggly mark that appears as though the person
>was deleting the marks. This squiggly mark was somewhat like the slinky I
>described, only in very short form. Hope you understand my
>description---hard to describe. Also, it may look like lettering inside a
>parentheses, except it is enclosed in parentheses looking more like a script
>capital E and a backwards capital E. (Use your imagination)
> Does anyone know what I'm talking about? And, is this another way of
>providing a signature when the person could not write?
> Pat
>
>
>
>==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
>I'm not stuck, I'm ancestrally challenged.
Do you remember in grade school when the teacher would have you practice
script by forming circles that looked like a slinky when you finished? Well,
I have noticed at the end of documents where the signature goes, instead of
an (X), sometimes there is a squiggly mark that appears as though the person
was deleting the marks. This squiggly mark was somewhat like the slinky I
described, only in very short form. Hope you understand my
description---hard to describe. Also, it may look like lettering inside a
parentheses, except it is enclosed in parentheses looking more like a script
capital E and a backwards capital E. (Use your imagination)
Does anyone know what I'm talking about? And, is this another way of
providing a signature when the person could not write?
Pat
Norm,
Something I forgot to mention. There is no 1810 Census for Middle Tennessee, which includes Overton and most surrounding counties.
Judy
----- Original Message -----
From: Judy French
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 12:29 PM
To: CARMACK-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: One more try...
Norm,
The 1820 Census for Overton Co., TN list 2 Carr's. Fanny Carr 310000-21010 which translates 3 males under 10, 1 male 10-16, 2 females under 10, 1 female 10 to 16, and 1 female 26-45. The other one is Thomas Carr 000010-00100 which translates 1 male 26-45 and 1 female 16-26.
Hope this helps.
Judy Carmack French
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Carmack
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 8:36 AM
To: CARMACK-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: One more try...
Yes Karen, I suppose that is a possibility...which would make it even more
difficult....Maybe I could look into marriages of his siblings and see what
is there... often they married from same families... oh well, I'll keep
plodding...I guess I could check every susannah in Overton County in
1820.....if, of course I had access to that census! haha
Thank you lil darlin',
Keep an eye out...
Luv
Norm
At 05:38 PM 7/1/2001 -0400, K&C Stadler wrote:
>Norm,
>
>Is there a possibility Carr was not Susannah's maiden name but that of a
>previous husband? I realize she was married to John Wesley at 18
>(according to the dates you provided) but it might explain why you never
>found any of her family.
>
>Karen Carmack Stadler
>
>
>
>==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
>A single fact can spoil a good genealogy.
==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
A single fact can spoil a good genealogy.
Norm,
The 1820 Census for Overton Co., TN list 2 Carr's. Fanny Carr 310000-21010 which translates 3 males under 10, 1 male 10-16, 2 females under 10, 1 female 10 to 16, and 1 female 26-45. The other one is Thomas Carr 000010-00100 which translates 1 male 26-45 and 1 female 16-26.
Hope this helps.
Judy Carmack French
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Carmack
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 8:36 AM
To: CARMACK-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: One more try...
Yes Karen, I suppose that is a possibility...which would make it even more
difficult....Maybe I could look into marriages of his siblings and see what
is there... often they married from same families... oh well, I'll keep
plodding...I guess I could check every susannah in Overton County in
1820.....if, of course I had access to that census! haha
Thank you lil darlin',
Keep an eye out...
Luv
Norm
At 05:38 PM 7/1/2001 -0400, K&C Stadler wrote:
>Norm,
>
>Is there a possibility Carr was not Susannah's maiden name but that of a
>previous husband? I realize she was married to John Wesley at 18
>(according to the dates you provided) but it might explain why you never
>found any of her family.
>
>Karen Carmack Stadler
>
>
>
>==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
>A single fact can spoil a good genealogy.
==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.
I found the following article in the latest Eastman's Genealogy Newsletter. I'm not advertising for this book but there are some good points scattered throughout this article
such as the 5h paragraph.
- Reading Early American Handwriting
This week I had a chance to review two items that were about the
same topic and created by the same author. "Reading Early American
Handwriting" is the name of a book by Kip Sperry that was
originally published in 1998. The book is now in its third
printing, updated as of 2001. "Reading Early American Handwriting"
is also the title of a new videotape by the same Kip Sperry. While
produced by two different companies, the two products work
together well as complementary products.
Kip Sperry is an associate professor of family history at Brigham
Young University, Provo, Utah. He is also an accomplished
genealogylecturer and author. I have reviewed a number of his
books in the past few years and am always impressed by his grasp
of the topics and his method of delivering information in a manner
that is easy to absorb. I wasn't disappointed with the two new
products Kip Sperry created. The study of old handwriting is
called paleography; that sounds like a rather dry topic to learn,
but Kip Sperry succeeds in making it rather enjoyable.
Both the book and the videotape start with a bit of a history
lesson. Kip tells about quill pens and homemade inks. Remember
that your 17th or 18th century ancestor could not buy ink at a
store; he or she probably had to make the ink at home. Quality
varied, depending upon the materials available and the skill of
the ink maker. Also, paper was not readily available and was often
expensive, when found. Our ancestors often abbreviated words and
sentences extensively, in order to pack as much information as
possible onto a small piece of expensive paper.
Next Kip goes into a step-by-step explanation of each of the
letters in the alphabet. He describes the manner in which letters
were written hundreds of years ago, stressing the point that
handwriting was not as standardized as it is today. He shows many
examples of handwriting that illustrates his main points.
Did you know that the letters I and J were interchangeable four
hundred years ago? So were the letters U and V, as Kip explains.
In fact, W literally means "double U" yet it looks like a double-V
to modern eyes. That is because a U in olden days was written like
a modern day V. Kip also points out how the letter R is often
written upside-down in old handwriting, and a double S often had
the first S written as an F, such as "witnefsed" in place of
"witnessed."
Kip Sperry next moves into old letters and documents. On the
videotape, he shows paragraphs from a number of old documents and
dissects them at the level of detail necessary, both by decoding
individual characters as well as by decoding the context in which
they appear. His presentation methods are different in the book,
although the end result is quite similar: he describes the method
of decoding handwriting that may first appear to be
unintelligible.
Kip Sperry also explains double-dating; such as March 6, 1690/1.
After explaining how the calendar change was made in 1752 in the
American colonies, Kip illustrates the formats one might encounter
and shows how to interpret them.
The book version contains an appendix that lists many Web sites
and CD-ROM disks that are useful for decoding old genealogy
records. The videotape version also shows examples from many of
the Internet web sites although it doesn't present a long list of
Web addresses. However, it does show how to find online images of
many old documents. (By the way, is your local society scanning
old documents and placing them online?)
So which is better: the book or the videotape? I must admit that I
find this to be a difficult question. The book has many, many
pages of handwriting examples that are not found on the videotape.
It also has two appendices and a bibliography that are not on the
video version. However, the video seems to be better at explaining
some topics as Kip leads the viewer step-by-step throughout his
presentation. He also uses high-tech highlighting techniques on
the screen to emphasize specific parts of many documents, a
technique not available on the printed page.
I am reminded of the phrase, "You've read the book, now see the
movie!" In fact, I found that the book and the videotape were both
very useful tutorials for any genealogist.
Kip Sperry is obviously an expert at reading early American
handwriting. Both in the book and on the videotape, he succeeds in
transferring much of his knowledge to the reader or viewer. Both
the book and the videotape are excellent products. You may want to
buy one or the other. Even better, buy one or both for your local
genealogy society's library.
"Reading Early American Handwriting" in book form is produced by
Genealogical Publishing Company and sells for $29.99 (U.S. funds).
Any bookstore can order it for you if you specify ISBN 080630846X.
You can also order it online on Genealogical Publishing Company's
secure Web server at:
http://www.genealogical.com/item_detail.cfm?ID=5513
The "Reading Early American Handwriting" videotape is produced by
123genealogy.com, a division of The Studio. You can order it for
$14.95 directly from
http://www.123genealogy.com/dbstore/shopping/product_details.php?id=45
The above prices do not reflect tax or shipping charges.
Thanks Karen,
I ran across this several years ago and this pretty much shows that Ann
Black had no Indian ancestors. At that time we did not know where she came
from, these files indicated Elbert GA.
History of Franklin County, Georgia, Franklin County Historical Society,
page 63, 65
The following are listed as some of those who fought for the Revolution and
who were recipients of bounties (1784-1786):
John Black, 575 acres
William Black, 575 acres
Henry, John and William Black are listed as registering to draw land in the
1805 lottery. Henry and John drew two blanks. William drew one blank and one
prize of a lot. (page 89, 90)
Descendants of Unknown Black
1 Unknown Black
2 William Black b: Abt 1753 in ,,PA d: Abt 1837 in ,,IN
2 Henry Black b: Abt 1756
2 John Black b: Abt 1758 in ,,PA d: 22 October 1813 in ,Overton Co, TN
.... +Margaret Lyner b: Abt 1769 in ,Augusta Co ,VA d: Aft. 1855 in
,Overton Co, TN m: 07 November 1792 in ,Elbert Co, GA
... 3 Ann Black b: 04 September 1793 in ,Elbert Co, GA d: 1853 in ,Overton
Co, TN
...... +Jesse C Carmack b: 1769 in ,Frederick Co, MD d: 1834 in ,Overton
Co, TN m: 1815 in ,Overton Co, TN
... 3 Margaret Black b: Abt 1796
... 3 Elleanor Black b: Abt 1798
...... +?? Martin
... 3 Susannah Black b: Abt 1801
... 3 Jane Black b: Abt 1803
... 3 Elizabeth Black b: Abt 1805
2 Eleanor Black b: Abt 1773
Another researcher, James Robling sent me the following regarding William
and John Black:
William (who has always appeared to be the eldest child) was born in Dec.
1753. Henry (the 2nd child) appears to have been born 1756. John was born
1758. All three were born in PA., therefore we know that the family was
living in PA until at least 1760.
Eleanor (documents show that she was a sister) was born in GA in 1773. From
these facts we know that the family had to have moved from PA to GA between
1760 and 1773. These are the only ones that we have written proof showing
they were sisters and brothers.
I also believe that Robert and Samuel Black were also brothers, but they did
not appear to have served in the Rev. War, but were old enough to belong to
the Elbert Co. muster roll in 1790, and they both received land in Elbert
and Franklin Co. from 1793 to 1803.
William (the eldest) was educated whereas the others were not. My belief
(without proof) would be that William lived in PA long enough to have
aquired an education. Henry and John could neither read nor write.
Therefore I assume that they had moved to GA where their were no schools
before they were old enough to attend school. This could account for why
William was educated and Henry and John were not.
With Eleanor being born in GA, then we know that their parents were alive
and living in GA at this time.
From the old Scot/Irish tradition of naming their children (which I have
found to have carried on with these families when they came to America) was
that the first son was named after the fathers father, the second son after
the mothers father and the third son after his father. If this tradition
holds true here then their father would have been named John Black. William
(my line) did name an elder son John, which could very well be named after
his father. Other names of Williams sons were Robert, David, William, Henry
and Samuel.
My William did state in his Rev. Pension Papers that he lived in Tenn. after
the war before going to Indiana.
My personal belief is that whoever the parents of my William and your John
were, they most likely died in GA sometime after 1773. My William did join
the military in 1776 in GA and served until 1783.
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: K&C Stadler [mailto:pwcs@sssnet.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 5:50 PM
To: CARMACK-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Ann Black Carmack
I came across the following information in "Genealogical Abstracts of
Revolutionary War Pension Files Vol. I A-E" abstracted by Virgil D.
White in 1990:
"Black, John, Margaret, R890, BLW reg # 229010-55, GA Line, sol's
daughter Ann Carmack of Overton Cty TN states she was b 4 Sep 1793 in
Elbert City GA also states parents were m in Elbert Cty GA on 7 Nov
1792, sol d in Oct 1813 in Overton Cty TN aged 55 & he had 6 children
then living & still living in 1851, wid appl 18 Oct 1843 Overton Cty TN
aged 74, wid's name before m was Margaret Loiner or Liner, children
shown were; Anna Carmack 57, Margaret Black 55, Elleaner Morten 53,
Susannah Black 50, Jane Black 48 & Elizabeth 46, after sol & wid m they
moved to Franklin Cty GA & then to Overton Cty."
Karen Carmack Stadler
==== CARMACK Mailing List ====
My family tree is full of notholes... it's NOT him, it's NOT her!
I came across the following information in "Genealogical Abstracts of
Revolutionary War Pension Files Vol. I A-E" abstracted by Virgil D.
White in 1990:
"Black, John, Margaret, R890, BLW reg # 229010-55, GA Line, sol's
daughter Ann Carmack of Overton Cty TN states she was b 4 Sep 1793 in
Elbert City GA also states parents were m in Elbert Cty GA on 7 Nov
1792, sol d in Oct 1813 in Overton Cty TN aged 55 & he had 6 children
then living & still living in 1851, wid appl 18 Oct 1843 Overton Cty TN
aged 74, wid's name before m was Margaret Loiner or Liner, children
shown were; Anna Carmack 57, Margaret Black 55, Elleaner Morten 53,
Susannah Black 50, Jane Black 48 & Elizabeth 46, after sol & wid m they
moved to Franklin Cty GA & then to Overton Cty."
Karen Carmack Stadler
Norm,
Are you connected to the Overton County, TN, list? You might be
successful going through them to find Susannah Carr's parents. I subscribed
to the Claiborne Co, TN, list recently and uncovered some wonderful
information for my family. Even got the complete cemetery list for my
gr'parents family cemetery. Also, discovered the story behind a 'killing'
that took place way back when. The kind of stuff that most families like to
keep secret.
Pat
Hello List
I have been going through old photos and need help identifying some of
them. If you are a descendant of Charles C. Carmack & Mary 'Polly' Payne,
and have a photo of them, I would like to hear from you.
The problem I have is, I have one photo that is supposed to be of Charles,
but I also have others (one I know was taken after his death) that show
someone that looks like the same person. If any of you can be of any help,
please contact me.
Jeff
Please forgive me ....I erred...
John Wesley CARMACK's mother was Lettice McMILLAN, not Margery Jane Evans...
Thanks again.
Norm
Hello Lovely Carr People....
I thought I would try one more avenue to find parents for my GG
Grandmother, Susannah CARR Carmack, b. 18 Feb 1804, possibly in VA, maybe
in TN.
Susannah CARR married John Wesley Carmack, (b. 15 Nov 1803, Son of
Cornelius Carmack and Margery Jane EVANS), on 22 May, 1822, likely in
Overton County, TN since their first three children were born there.
I have to this date NEVER found parents or siblings to Susannah
CARR. Would someone who has Overton County or TN census records from
1810 and 1820, please check for all the CARR families living there and help
me see if I can make any connection? Susannah and John Wesley left
Overton County before the 1830 census would have been taken and traveled to
McDonough County, Illinois where they had three more children, then by 1838
they were in Lee County, Iowa where three more children were born.
Thanks ever so much to you that can help me with this...
Your CARR/CARMACK cousin,
Norm Carmack
Austin, TX
Hello Lovely Carr People....
I thought I would try one more avenue to find parents for my GG
Grandmother, Susannah CARR Carmack, b. 18 Feb 1804, possibly in VA, maybe
in TN.
Susannah CARR married John Wesley Carmack, (b. 15 Nov 1803, Son of
Cornelius Carmack and Margery Jane EVANS), on 22 May, 1822, likely in
Overton County, TN since their first three children were born there.
I have to this date NEVER found parents or siblings to Susannah
CARR. Would someone who has Overton County or TN census records from
1810 and 1820, please check for all the CARR families living there and help
me see if I can make any connection? Susannah and John Wesley left
Overton County before the 1830 census would have been taken and traveled to
McDonough County, Illinois where they had three more children, then by 1838
they were in Lee County, Iowa where three more children were born.
Thanks ever so much to you that can help me with this...
Your CARR/CARMACK cousin,
Norm Carmack
Austin, TX