In a message dated 30/11/2002 18:19:29 GMT Standard Time, tscii(a)msn.com
writes:
Arthur, I hope you don't mind getting my queries, but I have been
thinking
about my last message and have a few more questions. If our Y chromosome
originated in Scandinavia and made its way to Erin by separate routes,
whence came the family name? And what is the relationship with Scots
(presumably the Scotti, who were Celts) with the same or similar names that
are discussed on the Carden origins web site? Is there a basis (other
than
a presumed Norman connection) for speculating that there is a Viking
connection. There were Celts in England (Sasana) from early times. Is it
possible that our forebear was a Celt from Central Europe and some of his
issue and their progeny migrated to England and others to Ireland? Just a
thought. I find all this fascinating.
Terry Carden
Your musings concern a fascinating subject. I belong to another Rootsweb
mailing list called GENEALOGY-DNA where there is often discussion of this
kind of thing, and many references to research in these areas. If you go
through the archive at
http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Miscellaneous/GENEALOGY-DNA.html
you will find earlier this year an exchange between myself and others who
said that our Carden Haplotype was Irish-Gaelic. The whole inconclusive
exchange is worth reading. Just search the 2002 archive for CARDEN.
But I have had to put all that aside, as I just do not have the time to
follow it up. If you care to do so, that would be splendid.
What do you mean by "the Carden origins web site"? Is this something I have
missed, or do you mean the notes Trish has put on her site?
As for the origin of the name, the most likely origin, in my opinion, is that
of one of the experts in this field who says it is probably derived from the
Old English "Carr Wordign" meaning a rocky enclosure. Ormerod, the famous
Cheshire historian, wrote "at some point before [1216] a family assumed the
local name Carden." At that period it was often spelled Cawardyn and many
other variants.
Thus if we have Irish-Gaelic or indeed Scandanavian origins, that was
probably before surnames came into use, which in Britain was in about 1200,
starting with the more important families.
Another equally valid origin for the name may come from the French word
"cardon" meaning thistle. It is possible that Geoffrey de Mandeville, one of
William the Conqueror's henchman, wore a thistle in his helmet, and allowed
his steward William, who was mentioned in the Domesday Book in 1086, to refer
to himself as William Cardon, using his boss' nickname to distinguish himself
from other Williams. But I am not sure that there are any living descendants
of this guy. The other origin applies to most of us.
One day I'll publish all this. One day! I'm currently 73 - life expectation
10 years? Meanwhile I'm sending a copy to the CARDEN-L list, as it may be of
general interest.
-----
I have now, as promised, eyeballed the 13 pages of typed extracts from Co
Mayo RC parish registers which I had done for me in 1995, and I regret to say
did not find the name Terence. One day (again!) I will use OCR to convert
the extensive listings to digital form so that I can search them properly and
send them as email attachments. Would you like to do that for me? If so I
will mail you the originals. You might find other names of interest.
Cheers, Arthur