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Regarding "non-paternal" events ..............
Years ago there was a saying among nurses and midwives working in Labor &
Delivery Suites.
Mother - Baby
Father - Maybe
This came about because in the case of an unwed mother you were always be
sure of maternity and so would assign the mother's surname to the baby. If
she was married, it was assumed that her husband was the father, and the
infant was given dad's surname.
Given current naming customs, genealogical research in the years to come is
going to be challenging.
Thanks again, Arthur.
Carol Scarlett (OCNC Cardens)
Dear Dear Arthur,
Much as I love working on the Cardens, my heart goes out to Attie. One more
line might just be one too many, at this stage of the game.
Good luck, if and when .................
Carol Scarlett
Greetings everyone
Just had another thought on the Carden/Barry/Bagot/Charles ll The future
generations of family historians and genealogists will certainly be looking
more closely at DNA when researching the family tree. It just goes to show
that the only definite in genealogy and heredity lines is that that the
mother, who gives birth, is the really true line if we are compelled to
accept the B/D/M as the basis for documentation for our research BUT are
even these documents really correct.
In my 5 published book I have researched over 6000 direct descendants and I
would challenge anyone to say that all the documents that gave the father's
name (at birth) are definitely correct. On the law of averages I would say
that at least 2% of the women who gave birth definitely lied about this
detail to both the husband and the registrar. I might add here, probably for
many good reasons.
With DNA testing we would find "non-paternal events" but most likely
several generations removed if it is kept a deep family secret. We all know
that it is even harder to find out thing about grand-parents let alone
further back in time.
I have one case where one sister had a baby out of wedlock and her sister
took the child as her own as she was married and the birth was registered in
the married sisters and her husbands name. (Here even the birth mother's
name was incorrect). The girls changed names for the several months. (They
went away to have the baby from their normal area) I was told this, but did
not include it in the book, as I felt it would cause hurt - the person who
told me was the mother of the girls and now all three (the mother and the 2
daughters) are deceased and this boy is now a Church of England Minister.
(we will never know who his father was as I was not told this little
secret). The story will die with me. Really speaking I should never have
been told. It kind of slipped out so I promised to keep it to myself.
DNA testing is great as a tool but future generations may not necessarily
accept it because of the above results it may show. Perhaps in future the
female line would be used and with much more accuracy than the male line,(I
doubt there would be many like the above case in today enlightened society),
as now days there is no need for the inheritance going to the direct male
line which used to exclude all the other offspring of a marriage, when the
blood line seemed so important, and it was necessary to "carry on the name".
I dare say, Arthur, that the results of "non-paternal events" would still
show up in my (female) DNA as well as I am a Fourth Great Grand-daughter of
Nicholas Carden 1737-1815 who was the grand-son of Jonathan Carden 1674-1703
and Bridget Bagot.
I have read that the government intends to DNA test from birth for a major
databank so if access was available after 100 years to this source it would
certainly b.....up a lot of family research where "non-paternal events"
occurred in a family that one is researching. I am of course talking well
into the future here. 2120 onwards.
In my own case my husband was found to have F.D.H. which is very unusual, it
can cause complications if not properly diagnosed and is called - Familial
Dysalbuminaemic Hyperthyroxinaemia (F.D.H.)
This condition will drastically alter the results of all (blood testing
for)THYROID FUNCTION TESTING. This condition is not life threatening but
will cause major problems if the wrong diagnosis of positive thyroid
conditions and this is what can be life threatening, because of the
treatments involved. This was found in blood testing. We were asked to
check which parent it came from but couldn't because of the parents had
passed away. Our 3 children tested positive. Because none of our children
look like John he has always stated that one was the bakers one was the
butchers and one was the mailmans - just goes to show - gee I'm glad I was
"a good girl". (Now their kids all need testing when they reach late teens).
regards Ronnie Bates
ronnie(a)southwest.com.au
Web page http://www.southwest.com.au/~ronnie/http://www.rootsweb.com/ for my book indexes online.
Grandma! Where did I come from? Books 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5.
and Letters of the 20th Century.
Major family names in my books: Price, Traveller, de Guerin, Chesson,
Slattery, Gilroy, Carden, Cavanough, Livingstone, Dick, Dickins, Mullins,
Lansley, Bates, Fairweather, Dibble, Matthews.
In a message dated 05/02/03 01:38:50 GMT Standard Time, ltiemann(a)satx.rr.com
writes:
> Hello Arthur,
>
> Sorry to be so late in responding, but I started a new job and have had
> precious
> few moments for email. I am interested in having my father, Raymond Bell,
> participate in the
> FTDNA testing. Hope I'm not too late.
>
> Thanks...Linda Tiemann
Hi, Linda. I shall be very surprised if FTDNA object to giving you the
special rate too.
To save me looking it up, please will you send me:
Raymond's full name
Snail address to which kit and invoice should be sent
Email ID to which information should be sent
Hope you are enjoying the "Great Barnane DNA Mystery" as my brother calls it.
Arthur (alias Mr Barry)
Listers can now study several hundred Carden births and deaths extracted from
RC parish registers in Co Mayo, Ireland. In due course I plan to inform
others who may be interested but are not subscribers to the list. Perhaps
someone would like to copy the list to their web site.
The following foreword explains it all. Terry has done a wonderful job, at
my suggestion, and I for one am most grateful, as the original version was
hellish to use. He has been good enough to add a map showing the parishes
concerned.
For the time being please apply to Terry for your copy of the list, as I am
currently in Spain where my internet connection is rather expensive.
Arthur
---
COUNTY MAYO PARISH RECORDS
The extracts which follow were made by Catherine Kenny, a professional
genealogist of Dublin, in 1996. She was commissioned by Arthur Carden of
Horsham, England to extract all Carden entries from the microfilmed Parish
Register copies in the National Library of Ireland, for certain specified
Roman Catholic parishes in County Mayo. The specified parishes were those
listed by the Crossmolina heritage centre as containing Carden entries.
Catherine Kenny's fee of £108 was shared among several people interested in
Carden family history in Mayo and Sligo, including Gerard Carden of Glasgow,
Bud Burge of Ohio and Ian Macdonald of Cheshire.
This document is Catherine Kenny's typed report converted to digital format
and edited by Terrence Carden of Arizona in 2002. It is true to the original
including British spelling conventions and a number of apparent typing
errors, some of which have not been corrected. Copies can be sent as email
attachments to those who wish to search for particular names or places.
For information contact Arthur Carden at carden(a)one-name.org or Terry Carden
at tscii(a)comcast.net
I am looking forward very much to comments on the email I sent to all of you
a couple of days ago about the possibility that my umpteenth great
grandfather was John Barry, not Jonathan Carden (born about 1675). Perhaps
(apart from Ronnie, who has already commented) you are all still reeling a
bit!
A copy was also sent to the IRL-TIPPERARY mailing list (by someone who
received it by a circuitous route) and here are a couple of the replies,
which greatly amused me.
Arthur
PS. Atty is horrified at the thought that I might start on the Barry family
- time spent on the Carden family is already excessive!
---
>From Richard Callanan <richard(a)callanan.demon.co.uk>
The World Turned Upside Down! Great Story Mr Barry!
Now the question is whether advances in DNA analysis will forward this
hobby of ours or actually invalidate it all! I'm quite sure most of us
have "non-paternal events" (lovely phrase) in our history.
Richard.
----
From: "Janet Crawford" <reojan(a)eircom.net>
>
>So, Arthur, to give you a head start on your new family, I have a
>Margaret Barry who married one of my many John Quillinan's and had a
>child Johanna in 1860 in Tipp parish. While you are working on your
>new line, would you please watch out for her? ....
>Hey, I like you being a Barry instead of a Carden. Janet
>
Dear List,
This may be a little off Carden topic, but definitely on our family's
list for a reason to give thanks:
Got a note yesterday from Don Halsell, a cousin on my dad's side. His
son Jim, a Navy pilot, was Cmdr. of NANA's STS-101 mission back in
2000. Recently Jim had applied to go on his last and final mission
(he'd piloted Columbia 3 times previously). Friday Jim called his dad
and told him he was supposed to go on this most recent flight
(STS-107), but NASA told him he was to be going on the next Columbia
flight instead. Sadly, Saturday the Columbia crashed.
FYI --- Here's a link to the site where Jim talks about what was
involved in the STS-101 flight in 2000. If you have a minute to spare,
it's kinda neat. Go the site & click on the video clip offering.
http://spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts101/crew/halsell.html
Your L.A. Cuz... Martha
=====
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest for freedom, go home & leave us in
peace. We seek not your council nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hand that feeds you, and may posterity forget that ye were our
countrymen." --Samuel Adams
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
Hello Arthur,
Sorry to be so late in responding, but I started a new job and have had precious
few moments for email. I am interested in having my father, Raymond Bell,
participate in the
FTDNA testing. Hope I'm not too late.
Thanks...Linda Tiemann
----- Original Message -----
From: <CardenAE1(a)aol.com>
To: <CARDEN-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:14 AM
Subject: [CARDEN-L] 25-marker DNA tests
> I am delighted to be able to inform listers that the following, who
> previously only had 10-marker tests from Oxford Ancestors, have accepted the
> special terms I negotiated with FTDNA for new tests, and test kits are on
> their way to them:
>
> 7188 Jerry Carden
> 7189 Michael Carding
> 7190 Dr Anthony B G Carden ("Tony")
> 7191 Ernest W M Carden
> 7192 Scott Carden
> 7193 Cecil Carding
>
> A test kit went a while ago to the following on the same terms (Jim jumped
> the gun rather than wait for me to send in a bulk order, no problem)
>
> 6605 James Carden ("Jim")
>
> If anyone else who only had an Oxford test wants to join the bandwagon, let
> me know urgently and I am sure I can get FTDNA to include them on the special
> terms.
>
> (Atty and I are off snowbirding to Spain tomorrow night for 2 months, but
> emails should still reach us)
>
> Arthur
>
>
> ==== CARDEN Mailing List ====
> Looking for great Genealogy resources? Try the host of this list!
http://www.roostweb.com
>
> ==============================
> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go
to:
> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
>
>
Hi, listers. Maybe some of you will be interested in the following message I
have sent to some of my near relatives to explain that though we have the
name Carden, perhaps we ought to have the name Barry. This is what I have
told them:
----
You will remember that I was surprised, and Arnold Carden of Argentina
horrified, to find that while our DNA samples matched each other's exactly
they were so different from that of the first Carden to arrive in Tipperary
in about 1665 ("the patriarch") that somewhere between us and the patriarch
there must have been a "non-paternal event" such as adoption or an
infidelity. (The patriarch's DNA signature was deduced from the fact that
another of his descendants, Peter O'N Carden of New South Wales, has a DNA
signature which exactly matches that of others descended, like the patriarch,
from Cardens in Cheshire.)
Arnold and I are descended from John Carden born 1731, grandson of Jonathan
who founded the Barnane line, who was himself a grandson of the patriarch.
To investigate this further I persuaded (and paid for) a descendant in
Australia to send in a sample for analysis. He is Michael Carden of the
Barnane-in-Australia branch thought to be descended from Nicholas Carden of
Barnane, born 1735, a brother of the above John born 1731. "Thought to be
descended," because Nicholas married a Catholic, and was ostracised by the
family, who left no records of his Catholic descendants. All the
Barnane-in-Australia Cardens are Catholics, incidentally.
The result arrived today. Michael's DNA is identical to Arnold's and mine!
This proves
(a) that the Barnane-in-Australia Cardens are truly descendants of Nicholas;
(b) that if there was a "non-paternal event" it occurred before the births of
John 1731 and Nicholas 1735.
It also supports my earlier guess that the "non-paternal event" was the birth
of their father John in 1699, Jonathan's son. Jonathan had only this one son
and he died a couple of years after the latter was born. Jonathan is said to
have been disinherited for marrying Bridget Bagot without his father's
consent. My scurrilous suggestion is that Bridget was already pregnant by
someone else, and this was part of the reason for being disinherited, as
proper inheritance in the true blood line was so important in those days.
When Jonathan died Bridget married John Barry within a year, rather
indecently quickly. Perhaps he was our true ancestor, and all the
"descendants" of Jonathan, that is, all later Cardens of Barnane, should
actually have the surname Barry!
Jonathan left Barnane and all his estate to his son John, so he clearly
accepted him and even perhaps thought he was his actual son. So in that
sense we are all legitimately "Cardens of Barnane."
Incidentally, Bridget was said to be a descendant of his majesty Charles II.
So even if none of us are Cardens, maybe we are all of royal descent!
Ho, ho. Arthur
I have a couple of Carden strays in Western Australia:
William Henry CARDEN and wife Minnie COLLIS and children Frank CARDEN b 1902
at Kamballie WA and Queenie May CARDEN b 1900 died 6 days later, at Menzies
WA. They are gold mining areas and possibly they came from the Eastern
States. I cannot as yet find shipping or where or when.
Reginald V CARDEN died at aged 33 years in WA year 1895 so born 1862 but it
does not say where born.
ALSO a couple of oldies from TASMANIA
Mary Ann CARDEN married in Tasmania to Thomas MONDS 25 July 1827.
Richard CARDEN b 1849 and married 20 February 1889 aged 40 years to Sarah
Ann ARMSTRONG who was aged 43 years.
Catherine CARDEN b 1836 (maiden name unknown) died aged 52 years on 10
December 1888 in Tasmania her spouse was a Richard CARDEN but no detail
about him.
Elizabeth CARDEN b 1796 died 19 June 1879 aged 83 years in Tasmania. Thats
an oldie.
I also found this entry which could be the death for Ann CARDEN nee
Cunningham in NSW - there is definitely nothing listed under CARDEN Ann - so
perhaps the following has possibilities. If the family want to apply for a
death certificate it could clear up several mysteries.
62/1857 CARDON ANN, AGE 25 YEARS, DIED SYDNEY NSW.
Although the shipping list gives a different picture on the ages for her and
her husband, but the ages can be wrong. (I have found several errors myself
in the ages).
SURNAME FIRST AGE EVENTS VESSEL YEAR REEL REMARKS
CARDEN Andrew 20 Eliza 1855 2137, 2469 and brothers
CARDEN Anne 26 Eliza 1855 2137, 2469 and husband
CARDEN Frederick 24 Eliza 1855 2137, 2469 and wife
CARDEN Nicholas 29 Eliza 1855 2137, 2469 and brothers
CARDEN Richard 26 Eliza 1855 2137, 2469 and brothers
(You already have this info but saves you looking it up.)
What do you think?
I came across a death registration for a FREDERICK CARDEN aged 32 who died
in 1857 in Victoria - he was born 1825 in Tipperary Ireland, father James
CARDEN and mother Jane unknown. Doesn't say if he was married. Probably not,
as usually they list wife's name. Particularly if the wife registers the
death.
Honestly Arthur I don't know how you keep such good track of everyone's
Carden ancestors and connections - I am confused already.
I hope I am not duplicating what I have already sent.
regards Ronnie Bates
ronnie(a)southwest.com.au
Web page http://www.southwest.com.au/~ronnie/http://www.rootsweb.com/ for my book indexes online.
Grandma! Where did I come from? Books 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5.
and Letters of the 20th Century.
Major family names in my books: Price, Traveller, de Guerin, Chesson,
Slattery, Gilroy, Carden, Cavanough, Livingstone, Dick, Dickins, Mullins,
Lansley, Bates, Fairweather, Dibble, Matthews.
I'm still looking for Cardens that are lost.
My Grandfather's father is Joseph Alfred or Alfred Joseph Born in Canada.
Married a Myra Dube who was born in Vermont.
So far I do know they had 2 sons and a daughter.
Does any name ring a bell with anyone?
Neva