Tom,
Thanks for clarifying the Breadalbane descent for Cal (and incidentally for
myself who had not yet looked it up for him).
One point about the present potential heirs: John 1st Earl of Breadalbane
made sure when he was made an earl that, failing his own male line descent,
the title could pass to cousins whose line had separated from the main stem
before he was made an earl, and I think that it is possible that, like
Loudoun, it may pass in the female line failing any male heirs - but don't
know the latter for sure. Most titles do not, unless it is put into the
original grant.
I think that the descent of the one who is the alternate heir (to the John
of the Bank descendant - Sir Guy's son) is the Hungarian executive Huba
Campbell whose ancestor was also Sir Robert of Glenorchy. From 'Burke' (a
notoriously shaky source, but I rather think fairly sound in this case due
to the case still in front of Lord Lyon over the earldom) the Hungarian
descent is shown there as follows:
Sir Robert Campbell of Glenorchy 3rd Bt., suc. his bro. Sir Colin on 6 Sept
1640, b. circa 1580, m. (contact 16 Dec 1605) Isabel dau of Sir Lachlan
Macintosh of Dunachtan leaving issue, with numerous daughters, a 5th son:
William Campbell of Glenfalloch b. ca. 1621 m. Jean dau of Sir Colin
Campbell of Ardkinglas and was k. at Stirling Sept 1648 leaving issue:
Robert Campbell of Glenfalloch b. 19 March 1647 m. (cont. 22 July 1674)
Susanna, dau of James Menzies (pron. 'MINGies') of Culdares and had issue
an eldest son:
Colin Campbell of Glenfalloch b. 1680 m. 22 April 1712 Agnes, dau of Robert
Campbell of Auchlyn (a cousin) and d. 10 Aug 1737 leaving, with other
issue, a 3rd son:
William Campbell of Glenfalloch b. 23 Feb 1715, m. (1st) Effie McNicol and
had issue a dau., he m. (2nd) 9 Dec 1747 Susanna dau of Rev. Duncan
Campbell and d. 2 Oct 1791 leaving issue a 3rd son:
Capt. John Campbell of Borland, Perthshire Militia, yr. bro. of Colin C. of
Glenfalloch, b. 19 Nov 1763, m. 13 June 1783 Janet, dau of William Butter
of Edinburgh and d.12 March 1823 leaving issue a 2nd son:
George Andrew Campbell, yr. bro. of Charles Wm. C. of Borland, b. 9 July
1791 m. 2 Aug 1830 Margaret dau of Col. James Campbell of Glenfeochan
[cousin last connected 1336] and d. 3 July 1852 leaving, with 7 daus. an
only son:
John Breadalbane Campbell engineer in Budapest, Hungary, b. 30 June 1839, m.
(1st) He m 15 Feb 1873 Catherine, dau of Ferenc Jacob Gordon and had issue
(below). He m. (2nd) in Florida where he d. 13 Oct 1918 (only son of 2nd
m. d. in childhood).
Andrew John Breadalbane Campbell b. at Budapest 16 Feb 1874, m. 4 March 1893
Margit Erasabet, dau of Janos Miklos Gocse and d. 16 Apr 1899 leaving issue
with two daus a son:
Janos Breadalbane Campbell, engineer, b. 2 Apr 1895, educ. Budapest
University, m.Illona Szalasi and has issue a dau and two sons:
(1)
Huba Campbell, Company director and claimant to the earldom, b. 9 Feb 1945,
m. March 1991 Anna Maria dau of Janos Jozsef Eckert and his wife Martha
Lambio and they have issue:
Frederick Huba b. 1992
Helena Sarolta b. 1996
(2)
Nicholas Gyorgy who aslo has a son.
The Lord Lyon seems to be in no hurry to decide the issue or perhaps it is
the claimants who are still researching. There is of course no land or cash
left to claim so it is only the title that survives. Mercifully it seems
that planning permission has finally been given to the Canadian company who
owns the Breadalbane 'palace' or castle at Taymouth in Perthshire to turn
the place into a luxury hotel, so sving that architectural heritage. Sadly
the Breadalbane portraits are in unknown diaspora, however the Scottish
National Portrait Gallery have those of Sir Duncan of Glenorchy 1st Bt and
John of Breadalbane 1st Earl - and have b&w photos of the others. They have
a B&W photo of the damaged portrait of Sir Robert 3rd Bt.
Diarmid
(Campbell in Kilmelford, Argyll, Scotland)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom von Weissenberg [mailto:tomvw@nic.fi]
Sent: 08 June 2005 16:55
To: CAMPBELL-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CAMPBELL] Earls of Breadalbane
Cal,
You can go to
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/families/
cambells_breadalbane.htm , and you can read the following:
+++++
The (first) Earl (John Campbell) died in 1716, in his 81st year. He
married first, 17th December 1657, Lady Mary Rich, third daughter of
Henry, first Earl of Holland, who had been executed for his loyalty to
Charles the First, 9th March 1649. By this lady he had two sons -
Duncan, styled Lord Ormelie, who survived his father, but was passed
over in the succession, and John, in his father's lifetime styled Lord
Glenurchy, who became second Earl of Breadalbane. He married, secondly,
7th April 1678, Lady Mary Campbell, third daughter of Archibald,
Marquis of Argyll, dowager of George, sixth Earl of Caithness (having a
third son Colin of Ardmaddy).
John Campbell, Lord Glenurchy, the second son, born 19th November 1662,
was by his father nominated to succeed him as second Earl of
Breadalbane, in terms of the patent conferring the title. He died at
Holyroodhouse, 23rd February 1752, in his ninetieth year. He married,
first, Lady Frances Cavendish, second of the five daughters of Henry,
second Duke of Newcastle. She died, without issue, 4th February 1690,
in her thirtieth year. He married, secondly, 23rd May 1695, Henrietta,
second daughter of Sir Edward Villiers, knight, sister of the first
Earl of Jersey, and of Elizabeth, Countess of Orkney, the witty but
plain looking mistress of King William III. By his second wife he had a
son, John, third earl, and two daughters.
John, third earl, born in 1696, was educated at the university of
Oxford, and after holding many highly important public offices, died at
Holyroodhouse, 26th January 1782, in his 86th year. He was twice
married, and had three sons, who all predeceased him.
The male line of the first peer having thus become extinct, the clause
in the patent in favour of heirs-general transferred the peerage, and
the vast estates belonging to it, to his kinsman, John Campbell, born
in 1762, eldest son of Colin Campbell of Carwhin, descended from Colin
Campbell of Mochaster (who died in 1678), third son of Sir Robert
Campbell of Glenurchy. The mother of the fourth Earl and first Marquis
of Breadalbane was Elizabeth, daughter of Archibald Campbell of
Stonefield, sheriff or Argyleshire, and sister of John Campbell,
judicially styled Lord Stonefield, a lord of session and justiciary.
+++
In the mid 1600's the head of the Campbells of Glenorchy was Colin, who
was succeeded by his brother Robert. Robert had five sons, and he was
succeeded by eldest son John who was succeeded by the eldest son,
another John, who became 1st earl of Breadalbane, succeeded by 2nd and
3rd earl of B. When the 3rd earl died without a son, they had to go
back to the first common ancestor (Robert) with a male descendant
representing the oldest line. Roberts second son Colin of Mochaster,
brother to the 4th of Glenurchy, whos oldest male descendant was John
Campbell of Carwhin. He become the 4th Earl of Breadalbane.
I have no records here (in Cambodia) showing the names (and number of
generations) between Robert and John of Carwhin, but it is obvious they
were 'cousins'. Depending on which generation John of Carwhin actually
represents, we can assume he was 4th or 5th cousin with the 3rd earl.
You may know that the succession is at stake again. One of the two
contestants is collecting evidence in support for his claim. He is
descending from the 1st earls third son Colin of Armaddy from his
second marriage with Lady Mary Campbell of Argyll. According to all
official records Colin died (unmarried and therefore) without legal
issue. On the other hand, if you check the background of the prominent
banker First Cashier (same as a CEO today) John Campbell of the Bank
(Royal Bank of Scotland that is) and he is without exeption recognized
as the 1st earls grandson. The one claiming the title descends from
John 1st earls eldest son Duncan, Lord Ormelie, who was passed over in
the succession by the younger brother John, due to weak health (others
say due to weak intellect). The other one is descending from John of
the Banks oldest son John. My connection with the Campbell's is Johns
youngest brother Alexander. May I ask what is your interest in this
issue?
With monsoon-warm regards,
Tom
On Jun 8, 2005, at 01:02, Cal Campbell wrote:
Sorry, I meant that the 4th was a cousin. When the 3rd Earl died,
the
earldom was not passed along the 3rd's bloodline, but went to a
cousin. What I was asking for is the relationship, the common ancestor
of these two that would make them cousins.
Cal
----- Original Message ----- From: "Diarmid Campbell"
<diarmid(a)diarmid.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <CAMPBELL-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: [CAMPBELL] Earls of Breadalbane
> Cal,
>
> Sounds like incest or misprint.
>
> Diarmid
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cal Campbell [mailto:bbatdega@bellsouth.net]
> Sent: 07 June 2005 07:51
> To: CAMPBELL-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: [CAMPBELL] Earls of Breadalbane
>
>
> I just read an article that stated that the 3rd Earl of Breadalbane,
> John
> Campbell was acousin of the John Campbell, 3rd Earl of Breadalbane.
> Can
> anyone show me the actual line of both?
>
> Cal
>
>
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