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I agree Linda,
My PURNELL's moved from the Clutton area of Somerset to Abertillery
following the mining industry - however, George PURNELL appears to have
decided to get "his boys" out of the mines and eventually they ended up as
publicans :)
Wendy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lindy Dawson" <lindydawson(a)mail.com>
To: <BlaenauGwent-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: [BLAENAUGWENT] Re: Where did they come from?
> "those workers must have come from outside. Where did they come from?"
>
> My Talbot's and Vaters came from High Littleton in Somerset when the mines
there closed down and it looked as if huge numbers of Somerset miners made
the trek to Wales.
> Lindy Dawson
>
> --
> ___________________________________________________________
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Hi
Firstly picking up on Susan's last point, my wife and I were surprised to
find that we roughly had as many illegitimate as legitimate grandparents and
great grandparents, this was certainly different to our preconceived ideas
about Victorian morality. Indeed one of my wife's great grandfathers was one
of 7 illegitimate children and we have no idea, at present, whether they
shared the same father. In many cases they did indeed move great distances,
one of my grandfathers moving from Essex to Tredegar. Interestingly there
are often "white lies" on a wedding certificate, their birth certificate
showing no record of a father but the marriage certificate gives the name of
a father with the same surname as their known mother's maiden name. On two
occasions the father's Christian name matches another relative (uncle and
grandfather) and if we rule out any family "getting together", then it
appears they are quite willing to name a known family relative as their
father as they now live so far away from their family, and who presumably
are not attending the wedding. In both cases the "father" is shown as
deceased. If nothing else it does make it difficult to trace relatives
further back.
The topic I would like help on is where I can find out more about
individuals who worked on large estates in Monmouthshire. I have a GG
grandfather, John Clark(e) who was a coachman at Bedwellty House, Tredegar,
but I have no knowledge of when he started or finished. He was certainly
working as a coachman on the 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses, but I can't be
sure it was at Bedwellty House during all that period. By the time he died
in 1876 he was a labourer and I would love to know why there was this
change. Before he moved to Tredegar he was, according to family legend, at
Berkeley Castle, but they tell me they keep no records of their ex-employees
from the 19th Century.
Thanks.
Colin Brockhurst
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Tudor-Coulson [mailto:susantudor-coulson@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 17 June 2005 14:29
To: BlaenauGwent-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [BLAENAUGWENT] Please Read: List Topics
Hi all
I'm pleased that my thoughts have struck so many chords with as many
listmembers as they have done.
It occurred to me last night that migration is simply the mechanism which
gives rise to strays and person is a stray because they have migrated from
wherever they started. It's very obvious when you think about it and almost
everyone involved in genealogical research comes upon their own sooner or
later. If it's not "where the hell did he come from?" it's "where the hell
did he go to?".
One of the reasons I've not been terribly active on this list is that the
little I've been able to find out so far about my ancestors in this area is
that they, or at least those I have information on, appear to have been
transients rather than well-established in the region.
My 3x great-grandfather Jephtha DAVIES or DAVIS, according to the 1881
census, was born c1814 in a place which is probably Tre'r ddol in northern
Cardiganshire. By 1834 he had seemingly migrated to the region as he
apparently married a Tabitha MARSDEN at Bedwelty in that year. They
produced only one child that I've been able to trace - Joseph, born c1837 -
before Tabitha seems to die in 1848.
In the 1861 and 1871 censuses he is joined by a second wife, Sarah (maiden
name unknown) and a daughter, Elizabeth, born c1850. By 1881 he is again a
widower and the 30-year-old Elizabeth is unmarried. So far I've not found a
death or burial for Jephtha (although BMD's deaths for the period 1881 to
1900 are almost complete) and have no idea whether Elizabeth married and
had children.
Back to Joseph. In 1859 he married an Elizabeth WILKINS, daughter of James
WILKINS, a collier, at Merthyr Tydfil register office. Joseph's occupation
is given as "puddler" and his father's is given as a collier. Between their
marriage and 1870 they produced 5 children - and they appear in the 1871
census in Hartlepool. They "why" of their migration to NE England is no
mystery - Hartlepool and what is now Teesside were rapidly developing iron
and ship-building industries and Joseph presumably saw better opportunities
there than in Wales.
In other words, it seems that Jephtha arrives in Blaenau-Gwent c1834 and by
1871 his known descendants have already left the area.
That is as much as I know. I have no information about the WILKINS or
MARSDEN families, who may themselves have been incomers or they may be part
of the original population of the region.
I take the point someone made about depression in the agricultural sector
from time to time during the 19th century as a motive for migration to the
developing industrial centres, or indeed for migration to the colonies and
the US. The period between 1870 and 1900 apparently saw the worst
agricultural recession this country has ever seen, and the opening decades
of the century were almost as bad. So bad, in fact, that every bank in
Pembrokeshire failed and many farmers went bankrupt.
It is certainly an explanation for why peasants and agricultural workers
left the land, but it may not explain Jephtha's migration from Tre'r ddol,
if that is where he indeed came from, since the parish was the centre of a
thriving hat-making industry, at least during the period at which he seems
to have left. If that is so, then it seems likely that there was a fair
amount of skilled work available in his home area, even it it would
eventually send you bonkers. However there is one thing in what I believe
to be Jephtha's baptism record at Llangynfellyn parish church which
interests me:
"(Entry Number) 21 (Year) 1814, (Date) July 10 Jephtha bastard of David
Lewis, Tan'r allt, apprentice for a blacksmith, and Elizabeth Morris."
It's the word "bastard". I've wondered whether the religious climate of
that area at that time (I'm assuming fire and brimstone, hell and damnation
preaching with public shaming of "sinners", especially of the sexual
variety) would have made for a hostile atmosphere such that leaving and
starting anew in a place where no-one knows you're illegitimate is much
better than staying put and maybe having the stigma hanging over you for
life. I don't know.
I apologise for a long and rambling post but it puts into context, I think,
why I raised the topics I did.
Kind regards
STC
At 12:01 16/06/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi All
>
>I like the idea about discussing reasons for migration - growth of
industry
>etc. Several branches of my family moved into the area because of the
growth
>of the railway, and did very well as a result.
>
>My great great uncle was a station master at Tredegar and several of the
>family worked their way up through the ranks of the GWR. All these new
families
>needed registrars to keep a record of their marriages etc, and many of my
>family members were registrars. My great great grandparents ran a railway
hotel,
>and their sons were well educated and became engineers. A surprise -
social
>and geographical mobility in the c19th was much more fluid than I had
thought
>before I started my research - all due to the growth of new industries and
>communications.
>
>Going back another generation, the branches of the family come from
>Aberystwyth, Droitwich, Neath, Brecon, Hereford, Malvern and Swansea. I
had always
>been taught at school that if you go back a couple of generations you'd
find
>everyone coming from the same village - not true - especially in South
Wales in
>the c19th!
>
>Best wishes to everyone,
>Abi.
>
>
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"those workers must have come from outside. Where did they come from?"
My Talbot's and Vaters came from High Littleton in Somerset when the mines there closed down and it looked as if huge numbers of Somerset miners made the trek to Wales.
Lindy Dawson
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My Grt Grt Grandfather came to the area in 1830's from Abergele Denbighshire. I have notice while going through census a few others in the Brynmawr area from that area. Having a common name I am having problems tracing his family in North Wales (John Williams)
Linda
Hello Cynthia
You did not mention the children`s names.
The Gwent Fhs 1851 Census has
Aberystruth 1851
HO107 2447 454 8
PHILLIPS HENRY 33
JANE 28
MARTHA 4
HO107 366 2
PHILLIPS GEORGE 71
WILLIAM 25
Keith
Dear Lindy
It's clear that lots of people came into the South Wales from the West
Country. My great uncle David Davies married a Typhena Williams whose
family had settled in Tredegar from Devon in the second half of the
nineteenth century. The general pattern of movement was obviously that
people tended to move as economic migrants to the nearest place which was
likely to offer work.
Best wishes
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lindy Dawson" <lindydawson(a)mail.com>
To: <BlaenauGwent-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: [BLAENAUGWENT] Re: Where did they come from?
> "those workers must have come from outside. Where did they come from?"
>
> My Talbot's and Vaters came from High Littleton in Somerset when the mines
there closed down and it looked as if huge numbers of Somerset miners made
the trek to Wales.
> Lindy Dawson
>
> --
> ___________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
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>
>
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Hi Byron,
Sorry just seen your message i also have Evans's family, I have a James Evans born 1887 who moved with his wife to Maesteg.
Any connection please?
Regards
Sian.
BYRON LOVELL <bycyn(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
Hello from across the pond! I'm looking for my gggrandparets from Nantyglo, Blaina, Monmouthshire, etc. I have Jane Price Evans born in Nantyglo 18 Aug 1822, daughter of James Evans and Martha? Price. Also George Henry Phillips born Dec. 22, 1818 son of George Phillips and Emma Davis. They were married June 9, 1844 in Abergavenny. They just seem to disappear into thin air. They came to the US in the late 1850's. I know he was a miner because he came to Pennsylvania and worked in the mines for 2 years to save up enough money to send for his family. The children were born in Blaina.
If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I would really appreciate them!!!! If anyone ties into these lines, please feel free to share anything with me. Anyway thank you for your help!!!!
Cynthia Lovell
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Hi Byron,
I have just seen your message and was wondering if you could tell me a bit more about your Phillips family as i have Phillips in my family who moved to the Monmouth area from Gloucester.
Regards
Sian
BYRON LOVELL <bycyn(a)pacbell.net> wrote:
ps I forgot to mention that George Henry Phillips was born in Monmouthshire, England. I know that's a large county, but his wife was from Blaina and their children were born there. I'm thinking that he was from close around. Anyway help!!!!!!
Note: forwarded message attached.
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PS Does the census give any indication "where" they were living??? What town, what street, etc??? Also the older George, was he a close neighbor??? I don't know where to look for birth records. Would they give any information besides names of the parents??? Thank you for your help!!!! Cynthia
Hello Cynthia
You did not mention the children`s names.
The Gwent Fhs 1851 Census has
Aberystruth 1851
HO107 2447 454 8
PHILLIPS HENRY 33
JANE 28
MARTHA 4
HO107 366 2
PHILLIPS GEORGE 71
WILLIAM 25
Keith
BYRON LOVELL <bycyn(a)pacbell.net> wrote:Thank you for your reply!!! That's my family! George & Jane with little Martha. They had only one living child in the 1851 census. What I can't find are their parents. I have names but that's all. No dates, no proof, etc. On my records I have George Phillips and Emma Davis as parents of George and James Evans and Martha? Price as her parents.
Here are their children which might give some clues as to the names:
Hannah Phillips (died before 1851)
Martha Phillips born 19 Oct 1846
Eliza Phillips (died before 1851)
Mary Jane Phillips (born 16 June 1851)
James Evans Phillips (died as infant born in fall 1852)
George Henry Phillips (born 22 Mar 1856)
John Evans Phillips born in 1860 in Pennsylvania
I know that sometimes their names might also have some clues, since they were often named after their relatives.
Thank you again!!!
Cynthia Lovell
keith wrote:
Hello Cynthia
You did not mention the children`s names.
The Gwent Fhs 1851 Census has
Aberystruth 1851
HO107 2447 454 8
PHILLIPS HENRY 33
JANE 28
MARTHA 4
HO107 366 2
PHILLIPS GEORGE 71
WILLIAM 25
Keith
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Forwarding to the list on behalf of Sian Evans <evans6441(a)yahoo.co.uk>.
All emails sent to the list must be in plain text otherwise the mail
server cannot send the mail to the list.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Lloyd
Date: 6/17/2005, 2:16 AM
From: Sian Evans <evans6441(a)yahoo.co.uk>
To: BLAENAUGWENT-admin(a)rootsweb.com
Hi Annie,
Have you got Elizabeth Lloyd born 1884 please?
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I would very much like to know more about the timeline
of mine closures and other social/economic issues that
pushed people farther west.
My MASONs came to Abertillery from Wiltshire between
1881 and 1891; mining was the dominant occupation.
My MILTONs came to Abertillery from Somerset - first
to Glamorgan between 1851 and 1861, then to
Monmouthshire by 1871; occupation sawyer, and later
milk vendor.
Kathy
Orlando, Florida
--- Lindy Dawson <lindydawson(a)mail.com> wrote:
> "those workers must have come from outside. Where
> did they come from?"
>
> My Talbot's and Vaters came from High Littleton in
> Somerset when the mines there closed down and it
> looked as if huge numbers of Somerset miners made
> the trek to Wales.
> Lindy Dawson
>
> --
>
___________________________________________________________
> Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
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ps I forgot to mention that George Henry Phillips was born in Monmouthshire, England. I know that's a large county, but his wife was from Blaina and their children were born there. I'm thinking that he was from close around. Anyway help!!!!!!
Note: forwarded message attached.
Hello from across the pond! I'm looking for my gggrandparets from Nantyglo, Blaina, Monmouthshire, etc. I have Jane Price Evans born in Nantyglo 18 Aug 1822, daughter of James Evans and Martha? Price. Also George Henry Phillips born Dec. 22, 1818 son of George Phillips and Emma Davis. They were married June 9, 1844 in Abergavenny. They just seem to disappear into thin air. They came to the US in the late 1850's. I know he was a miner because he came to Pennsylvania and worked in the mines for 2 years to save up enough money to send for his family. The children were born in Blaina.
If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I would really appreciate them!!!! If anyone ties into these lines, please feel free to share anything with me. Anyway thank you for your help!!!!
Cynthia Lovell
My grandfather, William Lloyd, left Cardiganshire for the Taff Cynon Valley
of Glamorgan in the early 1880's because he wanted to open his own shop (he was
a draper) and there was more opportunity in Glamorgan than there was in
Cardiganshire. He wasn't the first in the family to come - his cousin, William
Lloyd Herbert came in 1872 and he was a grocer. That seems to happen that if one
person from an area comes, others follow.
Annie
Hi All
I like the idea about discussing reasons for migration - growth of industry
etc. Several branches of my family moved into the area because of the growth
of the railway, and did very well as a result.
My great great uncle was a station master at Tredegar and several of the
family worked their way up through the ranks of the GWR. All these new families
needed registrars to keep a record of their marriages etc, and many of my
family members were registrars. My great great grandparents ran a railway hotel,
and their sons were well educated and became engineers. A surprise - social
and geographical mobility in the c19th was much more fluid than I had thought
before I started my research - all due to the growth of new industries and
communications.
Going back another generation, the branches of the family come from
Aberystwyth, Droitwich, Neath, Brecon, Hereford, Malvern and Swansea. I had always
been taught at school that if you go back a couple of generations you'd find
everyone coming from the same village - not true - especially in South Wales in
the c19th!
Best wishes to everyone,
Abi.
Dear Sian
I do have an Elizabeth Lloyd. She was born Elizabeth Addis and was married
to my great grandfather Richard Lloyd. They lived in the parish of Clodock,
Herefordshire. Interestingly enough she was the younger sister of Richard's
deceased first wife Jane - I thought that was forbidden by Canon Law but
apparently not, but people may have been a bit bothered by it because they
did not marry in the parish church but in the Baptist Chapel at Llanvihangel
Crecorny.
Sadly she is clearly not your Elizabeth. I have yet to establish the date
of her death. She was certainly alive in 1901, but I have nothing later.
There is no evidence of a burial in the churchyard of St Clodock, though her
brother is there.
Best wishes
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sian Evans" <evans6441(a)yahoo.co.uk>
To: <BlaenauGwent-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: [BLAENAUGWENT] Lloyd
> Hi Alan,
>
> Just read your email.
>
> I was wondering if you had an Elizabeth Lloyd born 1884 who married a
James Evans and lived in Maesteg with James and their 12 Children. I know
Elizabeth was't born in Maesteg.
>
> Regards
>
> Sian
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos
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>
> ==== BlaenauGwent Mailing List ====
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>
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> (In Digest Mode change the "L" to a "D") with the word unsubscribe
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>
Hi Alan,
Just read your email.
I was wondering if you had an Elizabeth Lloyd born 1884 who married a James Evans and lived in Maesteg with James and their 12 Children. I know Elizabeth was't born in Maesteg.
Regards
Sian
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Folks
This seems like a generally Good Idea.
One topic which interests me is the question of the development of heavy
industry, ie coal-mining and iron-working, in the area and the migration
which it attracted from other parts of Wales.
I have tended to assume that prior to the beginning of industrialisation
the valleys of South Wales were small agricultural communities with local,
cottage-scale crafts as required by those communities. We know that large
scale industrialisation required a much larger workforce so those workers
must have come from outside.
Where did they come from? Were any particular parts of Wales from which
large-scale immigration came and if so why from those areas rather than
others?
How did migrating workers hear about developments and how did they know
where to go? Newspaper reports? Itinerant peddlers passing the news?
Preachers warning their flocks *against* the new Sodoms and Gomorrahs of
sin and drunkenness? Were there active recruitment agents wandering around
Wales signing up the locals on behalf of a particular mine-owner or
iron-master?
I'm guessing that most of us have at least some ancestors in the area who
were immigrants from somewhere else (one of mine appears to have come from
Tre'r ddol in northern Cardiganshire) so this may be of wide interest.
If I had to sum this up I'd say it was about:
1. The process of industrialisation.
2. Migration.
3. Transport and communications.
Regards
STC
Good morning Joan. I do not know if this is the kind of thing you think
suitable but here goes.
1. Does anyone have links with the Coach and Horses Inn, the Punch Bowl Inn
or the Black Prince Inn in Tredegar where my ancestors were innkeepers.
2. Does anyone have any information on the brewery in Llanfoist where my
grandfather was.
I hope my ancestors were not responsible for too much drunkness in
Monmouthshire!
best wishes
Diana
Hi All,
I am looking for information about Elizabeth Lloyd born 1884 who married James Evans and had 12 children and brought them up in Maesteg.
Any help appreciated
Thanks in advance
Sian
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