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Is there anyone on the list, who is descended from William Hambly and Mary Springham, both First Fleeters?
I have just returned from a delightful week on Norfolk Island, where I took a photograph of the tombstone of Mary Hambly nee Springham.
If anyone would like a copy, please email me off list, and I will send it to you.
Hi, everyone. I am not a new member, just a returning one.
I have a query for someone else. This is what she sent.
Any info or suggestions would be much appreciated.
"Can you help... I can not find a John Rowe Convict arrived in Feb 1816. Ship "Ocean." I can not find him on the site "Find a Convict" I can not find him at "Old Bailey" so he must have been tried in another City .??. On the 1825 Muster all it tells me. Rowe John...Feb 1816..Ocean.. Master was Johnston..no trial date or year?? "
> Google it John :) You will get a result instantly
Ah! This modern world. How would our convict ancestors regard Google?
As Lesley says I got an instant result. So that you don't all rush off to
Google "fustian cutter" this is part of the result:
"A person who lifted and cut the threads in the making of Fustian, formerly
a kind of coarse cloth made of cotton and flax. Now a thick, twilled cotton
cloth with a short pile or nap, a kind of cotton velvet. A long thin knife
was inserted into the loops and the threads cut as it was pulled through,
stretched between rollers. The cloth was then brushed to raise the pile.
Fustian is the old name for corduroy / A weaver of Fustian."
I suppose when we stop learning it will be a sad day. Lesley will be lost
for a straight man (sucker) if I leave.
You got me. Pray tell what is a "fustian cutter"?
I suppose Rowe and Wroe are pretty similar. Out of interest I tried White
Pages on line and there are quite a few Wroes. Tried only NSW but more than
one page of them.
Thank you for this idea too.
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:49 PM, John Chapman <john16phc(a)bigpond.com> wrote:
> Write to him c/- his publishers.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Hodges" <rowantreek(a)gmail.com>
> To: <aus-pt-jackson-convicts(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:31 PM
> Subject: [PJ] Second Fleet author David Flynn
> >I have recently discovered more information about my Second Fleet
> > I would like to give this to David Flynn Author of The Second Fleet
> > Britian's Grim Armada of 1790; so if he does another revision of his
> > book,
> > it can be included. Does anyone have a contact address or email for David
> > Flynn ?
> > TIA
> > Karen
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> > AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I have recently discovered more information about my Second Fleet Ancestor.
I would like to give this to David Flynn Author of The Second Fleet
Britian's Grim Armada of 1790; so if he does another revision of his book,
it can be included. Does anyone have a contact address or email for David
Thank you Chris.
Chris Williams wrote:
> Some detailed information on purchasing power of the pound at different dates in the 19c can be found at
> under the following section:
> Currency, Wages, and the Cost of LivingCurrency, Wages, and the Cost of Living.
> --- On Sun, 26/4/09, fletch <waugpath(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> From: fletch <waugpath(a)bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [PJ] Money Value 1833
> To: lizrose(a)tpg.com.au, aus-pt-jackson-convicts(a)rootsweb.com
> Date: Sunday, 26 April, 2009, 4:20 AM
> Hi Liz W,
Sorry to be slow in responding to this thread but I have experienced some problems with my Internet service provider who seems unable to understand many people do use apple Macs.
Back to the point: the death of Lady Mary Fitzroy.
I am a trustee of St Johns Cemetery Parramatta and give free guided tours of the cemetery once a month. Three of my PJ convicts are buried there: Bridget POWER (Byrne), George BEST and Martha CHAMBERLAIN.
As fascinating as the story of Lady Mary Fitzroy's body being returned to England it is now thought to be apocryphal. There is no contemporary evidence for the exhumation of her body and return to England. Nor are there shipping records or evidence in the UK for her reburial. the story seems to have grown up later on and once repeated a couple of times becomes fact.
The Cemetery Trust hopes this year to restore and renovate both Vice-Regal graves. Beside Lady Mary Fitzroy's grave is the grave of Mrs Elizabeth Bourke , wife of Governor Bourke. Just as important are the graves of many PJ convicts and their families.
The Cemetery is open to all during daylight hours. I will be running my next free guided tour on May 1st from 12 noon to 2 pm as part of the ministry of St Johns Anglican Cathedral Parramatta.
---- Ross McDougal <rossmcdougal(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Hi Lesley, Lynne and listers
> Lady FitzRoy and Lt Charles Chester Master are buried in St Johns cemetery
> Parramatta in section 3 row H grave 7 from "The Parramatta Cemeteries St
> John 's" book. Section 3 is the rear left hand side which is the higher
> I grew up in Parramatta and remember being told this story but it is really
> good to hear the full tale as I only knew that Lady FitzRoy was killed .
> > Hi Lynne
> >>From memory Lady FitzRoy was buried at St John's Cemetery at Parramatta -
> > the high side
> > Hi All
> >>From journal of Eliza S Staff (aged 16yrs) grand-daughter of Sarah Whalley
> > (Speedy 1800) and Samuel Sandal (Barwell 1798)
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I think its a good chance "Private" means he was a soldier, and at
that time it would mean a soldier in the NSW Corps. The Corps had
been renamed 102 Reg and returned to England in early 1810. But many
soldiers remained. There were six soldiers named Thomas Jones in the
NSW Corps (Statham, A Colonial Regiment).
But there is one in particular, who arrived on the Recovery in 1808
and who was transferred to the NSW Veterans Company on 24 April
1810. The word invalid could indicate he was a veteran in this Company.
On 25/04/2009, at 8:15 AM, Sue Ahrens wrote:
> (1) On 30/04/1810 at St Philips, Sydney, Thomas Jones (described on
> marriage certificate as having occupation: Private, invalid) married
> Elizabeth Kinman, by licence.
> Actually, I've just thought - maybe the word 'Private' on the
> marriage cert
> means that he was a soldier! Didn't think of that before - thought
> it meant
> he was privately employed. (Just found 3 or 4 possibilities on the
> database Soldiers & Marines.)
Thanks for replying, Lesley. Did all the pre-1813 permission to marry
records fail to survive, or just some?
I don't think Thomas Jones (Perseus 1802) is the one I'm looking for,
though. The 1828 census has him living with Elizabeth Jones aged 30,
William Jones aged 20 and Sarah Jones aged 17, all born in the colony.
This doesn't really fit too well with the info that I am trying to make
sense of, which is:
(1) On 30/04/1810 at St Philips, Sydney, Thomas Jones (described on the
marriage certificate as having occupation: Private, invalid) married
Elizabeth Kinman, by licence.
Actually, I've just thought - maybe the word 'Private' on the marriage cert
means that he was a soldier! Didn't think of that before - thought it meant
he was privately employed. (Just found 3 or 4 possibilities on the SAG
database Soldiers & Marines.)
(2) The above Elizabeth Kinman might have been the mother of James born 1808
in NSW. This birth is listed in "Australian Births 1788-1828 CD Fiche",
which my cousin in Sydney (I'm in England) found on a computer at Merrylands
Library. The child's name was given there as James Kinman/Jones and the
mother's name as Elizabeth Jones (no father given).
The same birth is also indexed as being on a microfilm called "Attorney
General and Justice Registers of Birth Deaths & Marriages Vol. 5, Reel 5002
1809-1811, Description: St Philip, Sydney", but my cousin hasn't yet been
able to spot it on there.
(3) Elizabeth Kinman (Speke, 1808) died at the age of 34 and was buried on
06/02/1811 at the Old Sydney Burial Grounds from St Philips Church.
She might be the same person as in (1) and/or (2), although perhaps the
non-use of the married name Jones on the death certificate indicates that
she isn't (do you think so?)
(4) We had thought that Elizabeth in (3) was probably the only person in
Sydney at that time called Kinman, but a few days ago I came across a person
called George Kinman, in the NSW state archives Court of Civil Jurisdiction
index, as the defendant in a case brought by Michael Duggin on 10 Oct 1810
[NRS 2659 5/1104 case 108]. So that probably blows the whole theory out of
[The James Kinman in (2) is, I believe, probably the same person as the
James Kinman listed in the 1828 NSW census as a 20-year-old apprentice
wheelwright in Sydney and also the same person as James Kinman or Kinsman, a
wheelwright living in the Mittagong area from 1839 or earlier, who was my
Have you tried the two URL you provided below? I have tried both a number
of time and continually get a "redirect loop" message (Firefox has detected
that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that
will never complete.)
This is very frustrating.
[mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Grahame &
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: [PJ] Lost Convict Records
You will recall I posted a note recently about an article by
Christine Shergold of the NSW State Records on lost convict records.
This office has now included the article on their web site, see below
We have made the article available to access via our website at the
Resources For - Family Historians - Convicts webpage at
To access the online version of the article directly click on this link
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Does anyone know if there is any information available about convicts'
permission to marry before 1813? I have seen mention somewhere of a list
starting from 1813, but I'm interested in the marriage on 30 April 1810 at
St Philips Church, Sydney of Elizabeth KINMAN (Speke, 1808) and Thomas JONES
You'll find what you're after in 'Index to Abstract of all licences for
marriage granted to Free Persons'. In this Eliza's surname is
mis-recorded as Hunter - granted a licence to marry on 28 Feb. 1817.
John & Eiza married the next day, 1 March, by special licence.
Mary Ann & Josiah Allen both received APs (from Gov. Lachlan Mac.) as a
result of their connection to John Nicholson, on 28 November 1821 .
> I am hoping you might be able to provide some "how to"
>information to enable me to find any reference material for 1. marriage
>licences, and 2. convict pardons, as folows:
>I am wanting to view the original documentation or copy thereof of the
>marriage licence application for John Nicholon and Eliza
>Streeter/Streater 1817, and the application documentation for the
>Absolute Pardons for both Robert Cooper and Josiah Allen (issued same
>day 28th Nov 1821). I note that your (invaluable) Convict Anthology CD
>has Eliza Streeter's surname as Hunter, and I would like to clarify the
>spelling, and I would like to determine whether the Absolute Pardons
>for Cooper and Allen were made by the same person.
>Kind regards, Warren Diggins
That's great - thanks for the feedback.
I am thinking that there was a connection between these Allen and
Cooper families prior to their arrival in Aust., and perhaps that it
was via the Streaters, and subsequently John Nicholson. I am trying to
determine the origins of my ancestor Benjamin Allen, and am being
directed to the aforementioned course of action as a result of
extensive research in Aust and England. A Benjamin Allen was executed
as a result of the criminal activities which involved Robert Cooper
(piracy on the Thames), and I am thinking that my Benjamin may have
been connected to the fellow who was executed. Just supposition at this
stage - more to do.
Kind regards, Warren
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I am hoping you might be able to provide some "how to"
information to enable me to find any reference material for 1. marriage
licences, and 2. convict pardons, as folows:
I am wanting to view the original documentation or copy thereof of the
marriage licence application for John Nicholon and Eliza
Streeter/Streater 1817, and the application documentation for the
Absolute Pardons for both Robert Cooper and Josiah Allen (issued same
day 28th Nov 1821). I note that your (invaluable) Convict Anthology CD
has Eliza Streeter's surname as Hunter, and I would like to clarify the
spelling, and I would like to determine whether the Absolute Pardons
for Cooper and Allen were made by the same person.
Kind regards, Warren Diggins
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move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.
Can anyone advise if passenger lists for the various convict ships also list those from the different regiments on board.
If they do, where and what do I look for.
I have researched convicts on board ships and assisted immigrants, but this is my first redcoat (Christopher McDONNELL).
I believe this ship went to Tasmania first before coming to Port Jackson.
Many thanks in advance
Need a new place to rent, share or buy? Let ninemsn property search for you.
Does anyone know anything about George Tickle, transported on board Henry Porcher (2). He was aged 17, from Worcester, transported for 7 years. I think he's my g-g-g grandfather. Arrived 1835.
Merril (here's hoping this is convict no 7) :)
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